Talking cameras, smartphones and photowalks with Jefferson Graham

Gary Pageau of the Dead Pixels Society talks with Jefferson Graham, photographer, journalist, musician, and former USA Today tech columnist, as he launches his new website, The Best Photowalk.  Graham talks about the switch from film to digital, what camera makers are doing wrong, why Google Photos is the turkey of the year and much more.

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Transcript

Gary Pageau  0:03  
Hello again, and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. And today we're talking with Jefferson Graham, long-time technology columnist. Hello, Jeff, how are you today?

Jefferson Graham  0:16  
Hi, Gary.

Gary Pageau  0:18  
So Jeff, you and I have known each other for probably 15, almost 20 years, probably since you were attending the PMA shows, as the tech columnist from USA Today, and I was the lowly media contact you had at the time. So talk a great time and a great thing to say today. What's that?

Jefferson Graham  0:40  
Oh, and a great time.

Gary Pageau  0:42  
it was a great time. But first, let's talk about your origins at USA Today. You were there for over three decades. And how did you get into tech?

Jefferson Graham  0:52  
Well, I was covering entertainment. I was covering TV, primarily, the business of television and some of the stars and actors and writers. And I it got monotonous. And I kept asking for a switch. And they said, No, you can't switch, you're too important to be in TV, we need you there. And then this job came open for a tech reporter. And I said, Let me try out for you have nothing to lose. Let me at least write some articles for you. And see how it goes. And I did that. I knew from the first article. I wish I could tell you what it was about, but I don't remember. But I knew then that that's what I wanted to do. And I just sort of slipped into that job. And over the years became the tech route. So that was fun.

Gary Pageau  1:35  
So that was about what time period

Jefferson Graham  1:37  
2000 that was AOL, Yahoo, MSN,

Gary Pageau  1:41  
all that fun stuff. That

Jefferson Graham  1:42  
was they were the big big guys.

Gary Pageau  1:44  
Yeah. And you were you were kind of Ed Baig's taller partner in crime. I always see you at CES in places like that.

Jefferson Graham  1:51  
Yes, I would try to bend down when we did our videos. So it wasn't as bad.

Gary Pageau  1:57  
So you and I like I said first met PMA shows what was your sort of was my job to kind of be in assist you and other press who were there.

Jefferson Graham  2:07  
Orlando. It was Orlando and the 20. d. That's that was I remember it was Orlando and Canada just come out with a 20. d. Awesome. And they're now up to the 90.

Gary Pageau  2:17  
There you go. So you remember better than I do? So the question is, is from from a consumer tech standpoint, what were you seeing in photography, then? That was appealing to the USA Today? The audience, which is really just, you know, a mainstream audience,

Jefferson Graham  2:36  
First of all, I was there because I'm a photographer, and I was interested. So, you know, we follow our passions. And I was very interested in doing articles about, you know, this whole shift from analog to digital, which is what was going on, at the time that we met. Cardboard cameras were still 100 million a year. That's true. Right? Yeah. And so, you know, the rebel was the first digital SLR for under $1,000. Mm hmm. Right? Yep. And it was just starting. So the digital shift was just starting. And, you know, I know that when I tried the 20. d. That was it. I was not shooting film again. That was over. Yeah. And, you know, I'm also professional photographer, and I was shooting parties. I went to a party with 10 rolls of film, The 10. rolls were shot within 15 to 20 minutes, and I didn't know what to do. And then I show up with the 20 D, and it's just endless. So that was it. You know,

Gary Pageau  3:43  
that's one of the things I I've encountered doing during the podcast is talking to people who were in the industry during that analog to digital transition. It was really a strange time, because you had people who were trying to keep the analog process in place, right? In terms of you have a media of some source, you have a lens of some sort of an image, an imaging center of some sort, and you're trying to keep kind of the film workflow going.

Jefferson Graham  4:17  
Yeah, well, I don't miss it. I really don't. I mean, they're the purists that say, Oh, yeah, the film looks so much better. It's so much better than digital. I, I disagree. Yeah, I can show you some of my old film shots. They are so grainy. They're on unbelievable how grainy they were, I didn't realize how bad at the time and we know what we're shooting now. It's just so clear and sharp and amazing. And whether, you know, I shoot on a Sony, I use the a seven three. I could not be happier with with the results that I have. And then we can get into the iPhone, which is pretty amazing too. But that's all computerized photos. Those are not the real thing as you know. So most people don't realize that.

Gary Pageau  5:03  
What do you think of the, you know, the hipster film trend that is going on? 

Jefferson Graham  5:12  
I understand I just don't I, I'm not one of them. And I understand the fun of instant photos, and having stuff to stick up. And too many people don't get prints. And too many people show off their work by showing off their phones. And that's a shame, people should get more prints made. I don't know what can be done about that something should somebody's not doing an effective job, I think on on selling prints. And in making people realize how badly they need them, you know, they went to books thinking that would be the solve the problem. But books are so hard to make, they're still really hard to make, they take a long time. And the automatic software always gets things wrong. And they always put in things that you don't want, and then you end up spending two or three hours on it. So I don't know what the solution is on the prints. But you know, love to see more people hanging prints up?

Gary Pageau  6:03  
Yeah, and that part of the market is growing. Because in part because the variety of things you can print on has grown. You know, it's not just flat media, there's, you know, Canvas, metal wood. And and you're right, I think the industry could do a better job of making people aware just how easy and easy to do and actually quite affordable that stuff is I mean, Canvas prices alone have dropped drastically over the last few years. But there isn't a Kodak or a Fuji to, you know, to do the major advertising. Probably the biggest industry advertiser right now in media is Shutterfly.

Jefferson Graham  6:44  
Yeah. And they're the worst offenders when it comes to getting books made, because they are really tough. They did they do great work. Yeah. But the process of making it is so onerous, I wouldn't go near it.

Gary Pageau  6:57  
So who's your favorite, then? Who do you like to? I mean, you might as well throw a

Jefferson Graham  7:01  
while we were talking, talking about Canvas prints. It's really funny. I got some prints made at the end of the year, campus on demand. So you go on the site need $250? Yeah, but try this, put in this code. And the next thing you know, it's 107. I put in this other code. Now it's 50. Then you put in another code that I think I swear I best pay $25 for 24. By 30.

Gary Pageau  7:22  
long enough, they'll pay you to take the camp.

Jefferson Graham  7:24  
That's right.

Gary Pageau  7:26  
So who do you like for books?

Jefferson Graham  7:28  
think Blurb does the best work. But again, it just takes too long. And I I'm a purist, I want one photo on a white piece of paper, right? Every page, right? That's what I want. And they don't want to let you do that. They'll it'll eventually let you do that. But they want you to put one here and then three, and then four, and then five. And flowers in the background. I don't want any of that one picture per page, if they would just make it really dropped at simple. They'd get a lot more sales, I think,

Gary Pageau  7:57  
well, there's a lot of work being done in that field. I mean, there's a lot of AI being applied. Google has trying some of that. But I don't think they're really doing a good job of selling it. That's the thing. I think it needs to be sold. And there's really no one driving it. Right.

Jefferson Graham  8:14  
Right. And if Google's doing anything, it's just one thing that they're doing until tomorrow, and then they change their mind. And they go on to something else. Yeah,

Gary Pageau  8:20  
I mean, just recently, they changed their policy on Google Photos, which I think you've covered that actually, before you left USA,

Jefferson Graham  8:26  
I believe I call them the turkey of the year. Okay, so they said, despite five years of unlimited free photos beginning in June, you'll have to pay, right? And it's a it's a shame because of this, oh, it's fine. We'll give you 15 gigs for free 15 gigs, which includes your Gmail, and your Google Drive, right. And I have 40 gigs of unread emails in my Gmail, right? In a normal week, I'll shoot 20 to 30 gigs of photos. So I mean, like 15 gigs is nothing. And okay, you got to pay for space. I just don't like the bait and switch. But I'm not going to be able to give up Google Photos. And it's not just the the free storage. It's the search, right? Every time I'm looking for a lighthouse, or candy striper or anything. I just go to Google Photos first, because their search is so much better. Right? I have all my photos on smugmug. But every photo is not labeled. You know, if I do a shoot, it was like Manhattan Beach pier or something. It's a Manhattan Beach Pier, but it's not gonna say sunset. And I can't type sunset into smugmug and have the picture come up. Unless I tag everyone and I'm not going to do it. But on Google, I can say something Manhattan Beach sunset, even though the file was called Manhattan Beach Pier.

Gary Pageau  9:49  
You know, what's interesting is that is something that Google is really really good at, like yourself. I I've got everything in Google Photos. I and I really use Use it for that purpose sort of the, I need to I need to find that picture of my kids when my son was in Boy Scouts. And you can almost put in Boy Scout, and I'll come up all those pictures. It's really impressive. But it's really it's really not my go to for, like actually organizing my memories per se I use, you know, other services for that. But it is they do a really good job with that. And I you know, I'm the podcast, I talked to the CEO of a company called Miley Oh, which you probably are familiar with. And, you know, he talked about that, that, you know, their AI is really good. They really can't compete on that. But they hope to compete other ways.

Jefferson Graham  10:42  
Okay, well, I've been using Amazon photos as a stop gap, which is free for Prime members, but their search does not come close.

Gary Pageau  10:50  
And don't they have a limit on size?

Jefferson Graham  10:53  
No, no. Unlimited for photos for video. They they're, they're tough on?

Gary Pageau  10:59  
Yeah, that's what I was thinking I must have been in videos. So you were canon. And for a while you've made the switch to Sony, what was the what was the thought process there? video. Okay,

Jefferson Graham  11:12  
okay. So I could focus on the Sony camera and video by putting the camera to my eye. On the canon, you focus on the LCD. Now that may have changed, but when I made the change, I need I could use the viewfinder. And that was big for me. That's one in two, I could shoot on silent mode. So I do events, weddings, bar mitzvahs, stuff like that. I can shoot a ceremony silently. And then now I have the luxury of being able to walk around the room and not make anybody mad at me because I'm not making any noise.

Gary Pageau  11:49  
Okay. But one of the things that we're seeing, I find that fascinating because I usually hear a lot of discussion among the camera crowd is you know, there's so much allegiance to certain platforms like I'm a McKinnon guy. I'm a Nikon guy. I'm a Sony guy. And it's almost always down to quality of image, or this glass is better than that class. And I just myself, I don't see that.

Jefferson Graham  12:17  
When I switched from my 7200 millimeter canon to the 7200 millimeter Sony 25% sharper. Okay, now, it may be different now. I did the switch three years ago. Okay.

Gary Pageau  12:31  
Do you see the what I think is interesting is is is the advancement in lenses over the last few years. Now, I

Jefferson Graham  12:39  
don't know, you know, I bought a 2470 and a 7200. And those who might go to lenses, and I don't really use any other ones, I actually bought a 20 millimeter from Sigma Tamron. It's sitting there in the bag. I haven't haven't done much with it.

Gary Pageau  12:52  
yet. Now in your role as a USA Today, journalist, you got to play with a lot of a lot of equipment though, right?

Jefferson Graham  13:00  
I did my go to cameras, the Sony RX 10. For the perfect journalism slash travel camera, it has a built in 24 to 600 millimeter lens. It has a one inch chip, it was the most versatile camera that you'll end, you know, tight, small, and I shot all my photowalks videos, episodes. Okay, which were on YouTube, and is now moving to video on demand on Comcast and Cox in Google Play and some other places. But I shot all of them on the arcs 10 because I could go out with that one camera on the Oregon coast, and I didn't need anything else.

Gary Pageau  13:37  
Now, does that have an audio in? because that's where I've been talking to people who are trying to get into vlogging. And, you know, being an industry person, they always ask, Well, what should I buy? And I'm always like, you know, all the cameras are great. Just put your hands on and make sure you like it. And if you're gonna do video, make sure you have audio in.

Jefferson Graham  13:54  
Yeah, that's changed. It used to be that you couldn't get audio in and now they all have audio and pretty much even a GoPro has audio and

Gary Pageau  14:02  
it's kind of crazy. So the camera market is really interesting right now, because it seems to me like most of the camera makers have abandoned the entry level market completely. I mean, yes, there's a rebel here and a Nikon whatever there, but it's certainly not what used to be that features would come at the high end and kind of trickle down to the low end.

Jefferson Graham  14:26  
Yeah, we don't even know if they make a point and shoot anymore.

Gary Pageau  14:30  
why that's even, you know, point shoots a whole another issue, right? I'm talking about, you know, interchangeable lens cameras, whether it's mirrorless or DSLR. Where do what do you see happening in terms of getting that market going? I mean, right now, they're saying that probably less than 10 million units were sold worldwide, out of the SEPA data last year, which is basically you know, a new law if you will.

Jefferson Graham  15:00  
Um, I don't know. Yeah, for the past four years, it seems like Sony has been aggressive in new cameras and the other guys have not. And in new markets in like, I don't have any of the model numbers, but like Sony has some ones that are like, aimed right at vloggers. Right, which is a good thing. But too expensive. I think this is like one of the recent ones was like $700. And the whole benefit of it is that it has a flip screen. So you can see yourself when you're recording, right, which is really nice to have, and why didn't have it before? What did it what, you know, how hard can it be to have a flip screen? Yeah, it really helps. So I give him props for that canon. The Canon came out with the M series, realist, small little that could be aimed at vloggers. With terrible lenses, I mean, really bad. And you can't use your previous lenses. So you have to buy these lenses that have a five, six, opening, really. And then when you when you zoom in, it goes down to f8. There's, I could not find like a pancake lens. It's like an f2, like just a fixed, fixed, fixed focal length. I don't understand that. I mean, otherwise, it's a very nice camera, very small, very compact, I think it would appeal to people. But gosh, you know that the smartphones have just gotten so good that it's gotten tough, it is tough,

Gary Pageau  16:20  
it is tough. I mean, especially if you are going to be doing things like vlogging, or things like that. I mean, you know, I just got the iPhone pro 1212 Pro, and it's, it's amazing.

Jefferson Graham  16:34  
It's amazing, but you can't really zoom in, you can zoom in a little bit. You can't really can't shoot sports, you can't shoot it nighttime, right? You can't connect it to a flash in it. You can't use lighting, even when I use a softbox which I'm not. We're on audio. But even when I do a softbox there's something about the merits of the softbox. And the iPhone sensor doesn't really gel.

Gary Pageau  16:56  
Yeah. And people have tried a lot of those kind of light modifier accessories. And I don't see a lot of huge adoption of those, especially among pros. I mean, yes, they call it pro but but I'm just saying for the average person...

Jefferson Graham  17:08  
For the average person. It's amazing. Yeah.

Gary Pageau  17:12  
One of the things that you brought up earlier, I thought was interesting. I have found that in, in my opinion, that the camera makers are, their pricing is crazy. For what they're offering. In terms of it's way too expensive. If you're if you're trying to build the market and appeal to more people, like you said, coming up coming out with a body that you know, when Nikon came out with their new entry level mirrorless camera, I think it was 12 $100 for an entry level body. And I'm doing air quotes for those. Yeah. And I'm thinking what kind of that's an entry level. That's that that's that's ridiculous. And I don't

Jefferson Graham  17:52  
know where the or, or Sony came out with the world's greatest smartphone with the most advanced camera of all time. And it's only $2,500 for a smartphone. Are you out of your mind?

Gary Pageau  18:05  
Right? Yeah. Well, isn't that the one with the HDMI out? Is

Jefferson Graham  18:08  
that one? Uh huh. Yeah, you're paying for an HDMI out, you're paying $1,500 for an HDMI out.

Gary Pageau  18:15  
Because and this thing where, you know, I mean, one of things I always appreciated about your work in USA Today is you really had the mainstream person in mind. Right? You always had the, you know, the average person, what what are they likely going to be interested in? Right. And I think price is a big factor on that.

Jefferson Graham  18:35  
Yeah, I think camera manufacturers charging too much money. Now granted, I understand they're making less, and maybe they're they're losing, but they're not gonna make it up by selling you what how much is the DSLR is like, like $2,000 and 20 $500. And, you know, make it make a $500 camera that people can afford. And then it gives them an advantage to not not shooting on a smartphone, make it easier to walk around. And then the other thing that's never been accomplished is clicking a button on your camera and uploading it to Facebook. Right. Exactly. It's too complicated.

Gary Pageau  19:09  
Well, and that's one of the things I always thought was crazy. And I wrote a blog post about this last year I write one soon on the same topic, kind of like everything that camera makers do wrong. And one of them is is if if my Apple Watch can have a SIM card in it and a cellular connection. Why can't my camera right? Why can't my camera directly connect to a cell network and talk to the and talk to the internet and post directly?

Jefferson Graham  19:40  
I know, I know. It's just it's too logical.

Gary Pageau  19:44  
Well, well in its way it What I don't understand is battery life wouldn't be an issue. Right? And so I don't know what the drawback would be other than,

Jefferson Graham  19:55  
you know, I was always I only assumed the menu system would still be messed up. be crazy, that 25 pages of menus, and then you'd have to put one in, you know, the, you know, some smart person would say, let's do a one button upload. Yeah.

Gary Pageau  20:11  
Well, the new one now you could on the other standpoint is, you know, most of these cameras are, you know, designed, you know, by the Japanese and you know, they're not, they're not the greatest at UI. Let's put it that way.

Jefferson Graham  20:24  
All right. Now, if you've ever want to have some fun, go to go to Tokyo and go to the world's largest camera store. I've been there. It's eight storeys high. And it's floor after floor of amazing stuff. So fax machines there.

Gary Pageau  20:40  
That's yodobashi camera.

Jefferson Graham  20:41  
Yeah, that's it.

Gary Pageau  20:43  
So but the other thing we've seen, though, that, that that's been a change is really an increase, I think in interest in photography, it's growing, it's expanding, people are more into photography than ever now, whether or not it's, you know, quote, unquote, real photography in this sense. You know, there's a lot of folks that I talked to us who mentioned, like you said, you know, it's not a photo, it's printed, or that kind of thing. But it's still one of those things where people are definitely looking to communicate with pictures. And the other reason why I want to talk to you is I was talking to you about your photo walks, because this is sort of your new venture your post USA Today world. And I've never understood photo walks. So explain to me what a photo walk is.

Jefferson Graham  21:28  
We go into travel photography series, we go to great places, and I take you on a little little journey with me. And as we're on the journey, where we are seeing the world through camera eyes and taking photos of the great spots, whether that be in Portugal, Hawaii, LA, whatever.

Gary Pageau  21:44  
But is it like a travel package with some instruction thrown in? Or how is

Jefferson Graham  21:50  
that video? It's a video to watch? Okay, it's a travel series. Okay? Imagine you're watching Rick Steves, go to Italy, but he's showing you the top photo spots. How's that? Okay,

Gary Pageau  22:01  
so that's your version of photo walk or other people who do is an instructional thing.

Jefferson Graham  22:06  
I will show I do offer photo tips in the videos. And then, you know, a suggested tour, as well.

Gary Pageau  22:15  
So when you mentioned earlier some of the places that will be can you tell me a little bit about where people can learn more about that?

Jefferson Graham  22:24  
Go to my website, JeffersonGraham.net. And I'll have all the info there.

Gary Pageau  22:28  
And when is this launching?

Jefferson Graham  22:30  
February 19. Nice. And I'm also launching a new website called thebestphotowalk.com, which is not just my ideas about California but nationally 50 states. That's photo spots from Waukee to Monterrey from Jackson to Juneau. Okay. Okay, both places this week and interviewing pro photographers, for local pro photographers for their tips as well.

Gary Pageau  23:02  
So you seem to be very energized by photography. I mean, when I when I look at your your posts, the bridge, the local dock, I should say is the peer to peer to peer, I should

Jefferson Graham  23:14  
say is your favorite place. Do you ever get tired of photographing the pier all the time, I made a vow that I would not take one more picture of the pier in the month of February. That unfortunately lasted seven days when I got a text early Saturday morning, Sunday morning from a woman who runs a local news site and said they've changed the colors. And now it's all red for Valentine's Day. Okay, can you get a shot of it? by 625 and it was now 605 when I was reading it that's in the morning. And so I dashed down I had to get a shot because the light went out at 625

Gary Pageau  23:54  
so you're you're really tuned in on the optimal light is

Jefferson Graham  23:57  
know that they have lights and they turned off. I mean, they they Oh, I

Gary Pageau  24:00  
see there's lights on the bridge.

Jefferson Graham  24:02  
Yeah, around the pier on the pier. And then for Presidents Day they went red, white and blue. Okay, and so I had to go down and do that too. And now I'm done. I'm done until the next until St. Patrick's Day. And they go green. Yeah, but yeah, I'm tired his title should appear but you know, the speaking as a pro photographer every print I've sold has been at the pier there and I've sold a bunch of them.

Gary Pageau  24:26  
Yeah, I was gonna say I mean as you talk to pros around the country for your photo walk but object and and offering I imagine they'll probably tell you the same thing, whether it's a covered bridge somewhere or the Mac on our bridge here in Michigan, you know, how many times can you redo that but there's some things that you're the classic.

Jefferson Graham  24:47  
The other thing is this time of year, the best sunsets are November, December and January so that I got they got a lot of ink during that time and social media. I could put the most amazing picture of a tomato up Have a flower, nobody would care. And then you show the pier, the ocean waves anything oceany. And they go nuts. They go nuts.

Gary Pageau  25:09  
Yeah. That's funny. She said, because, you know, here in Michigan, we've got a lot of shoreline, right? I mean, the largest freshwater shoreline in the planet actually is Michigan. So there's, there's no shortage of shoreline picture, especially this time of the year with the frozen lighthouses and things like that. So yeah, like you said, those are the ones that get all they get all the looks. It's amazing.

Jefferson Graham  25:35  
I should also say that I'm lucky enough to live a mile from the beach. And so I wake up every morning, the gyms are closed, I take a two hour walk.

Gary Pageau  25:43  
That is such a hardship. I'm so sorry.

Jefferson Graham  25:46  
And I have a phone in my pocket. So I take a picture. If I see something, I take a picture,

Gary Pageau  25:50  
right, there you go. So you also have a newsletter view launch can tell me a little bit about that and how people can subscribe to that.

Jefferson Graham  25:59  
The newsletter, Jeffersongraham.substack.com. I write about things that I'm interested in. How's that? nobody's paying me to do it. And if you'd like to read it, I'd love for you to read it as well. For several years ago, I did a newsletter at USA day, every Saturday, where I would take one story of the week and then I would sort of bring it to life and then tell bring people up to date on what else happened that week. I'm keeping that going on my newsletter. So I do a text tech edition every Saturday. I've been doing some obits lately. Chic Corea died. Larry King died. I happen to spend some time with both of them. So I did remembrances and I'll I write about music sometimes. But yeah, it's the only whatever if something's really interesting, I or something really interests me, I will write about it. But generally, it's every Saturday.

Gary Pageau  26:55  
Because that's I mean, that's one of things that you know, if you've been watching your, your posts in various media, you're you know, quite the guitarist, quite the musician.

Jefferson Graham  27:04  
Thank you. So, yeah, so I usually do one new song a week and, and then the newsletter lets me posted there and I usually post them on Facebook and Twitter. This week. I did. There was a holiday on Sunday. And so I did my funny Valentine.

Gary Pageau  27:21  
There you go.

Jefferson Graham  27:22  
Yeah, I had never recorded it before. So I did that. And then one of the interviews I did for the new website. The best photo walk calm I did was Scott Kelby and we were talking about photographing New York. And you know, that just put me in a New York state of mind. So I got to working on that song and I recorded that one too. I don't know what songs next. Something from Gershwin. I think I've been playing some Gershwin songs.

Gary Pageau  27:48  
So talk to me a little bit about kind of the photo community because you mentioned Scott Kelby. And I think one of the things that is kind of kept me engaged in this industry is, you know, kind of the people who are some of your favorite photo people.

Jefferson Graham  28:03  
Well, I love Scott and Scott Bourne is another one of my favorites. Do you know Scott? Oh, yeah. Amazing bird photographer. Yeah. And just a really wonderful friend who I befriended on Twitter. And I really enamored of his work Rick Sammon, who you probably also know, is also a great photographer and big fan and I met a bunch of interesting photographers for the photowalks series. A woman in Morro Bay, California named Ginger D'Annunzio is a local photographer who does school portraits, and we went to we went around together photographing Morro Bay, which is great. And then up further up the coast in Oregon, a photographer named Susan Dimmick who lives in Dandan, which is one of the great finds of the Oregon coast. You've never heard of it. No, I'm

Gary Pageau  28:52  
not. I think I may have heard her name. That's why he's making that face. Okay.

Jefferson Graham  28:55  
And he does amazing work of the local, the rocks and some of the things that are in the water that are just out of this world. So I did a photo walk with her abandoned and with shot with ginger, who also goes by the name of Charlotte. Her name is Charlotte ginger de Nunzio. I have to remember that one. So those are just some and then Jan Schreiber is a photographer in Laguna Beach, who loves to go on bike rides and do videos about her bike riding, but does amazing work of Laguna Beach. And so she's also I did an interview with her recently on the site.

Gary Pageau  29:33  
Great. So once again, as we close can you throw out a few of the places people can learn more about what you're working on?

Okay, Jefferson Graham.net is probably the best place to go. It's my website. It's got links to everything. And the newsletter is Jefferson Graham.substack.com. And I have a blog at blog.JeffersonGraham.com. The photowalks series is returning I'll have all the tuning for all the tuning information. On my website, thebestphotowalk.com is a new website that will be up shortly. 

Jefferson Graham  30:13  
the website will be up and running by them. All right. And then on Facebook and Twitter and you'll never know when I'll be playing the guitar because I is at least once a week.

Gary Pageau  30:21  
There you go. Well, thank you, Jeff, for your time and much success to you and your future ventures.

Jefferson Graham  30:27  
All right. Thank you, Gary.