How To Exit A Small Business With A Real Plan, with David Hori

If your business disappeared for two weeks, would it keep running, or would everything grind to a halt because the “manual” is in your head? The Dead Pixels Society sits down with David Hori, principal at Topline Operators, to get practical about small business acquisition and what actually makes a company transferable, financeable, and worth buying. Hori brings a rare mix of experience: scaling VC-backed teams through acquisition exits, then shifting into buying and advising local businesses where succession planning is often missing. 

He unpacks the starting point for any exit plan: Understanding the owner’s role and spotting where the owner has become the bottleneck. From there, we talk process documentation that works in the real world, including the camcorder method for recording repeatable workflows and capturing not just what you do, but why you do it. For listeners in the photo imaging industry, camera stores, photo labs, and studios, the message is especially relevant: systems and trained people protect your customer experience and your valuation when equipment, seasonality, and production complexity are in play. 

Hori also breaks down deal dynamics buyers and sellers wrestle with, including earnouts, seller financing, and why many sellers want cash at closing even when it keeps deals from happening. We get into valuation and the numbers behind it, from EBITDA and seller discretionary earnings to how buyer types change price, whether it’s a cash flow buyer, a strategic trade buyer, or private equity. If you’re thinking about selling in the next one to three years, t

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Transcript

Erin Manning 0:00

The Dead Pixels Society Podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers. Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast, the photoimaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau.

Gary Pageau 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society Podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by David Hori, who is the principal of Topl ine Operators. Hi, David. How are you today? Excellent. And yourself? I'm doing great. Now your company is in the position of helping businesses be acquired or and also acquiring other businesses. Can you talk about your journey into that?

David Hori 0:45

I can. So my story for the last 10 years has been largely helping founders that were primarily VC funded grow their ideas. And what I mean by that is when you have a founder that has VC money and an idea, they need to partner with someone where the rubber meets the road. And that was me.

Gary Pageau 1:12

Yeah, exactly.

David Hori 1:13

They hired me to do a lot of the hiring of the initial team around them and put in place processes and systems around them to grow really quickly. Yep. And God blessed me tremendously in that in the last 10 years, I helped three different founders grow things to the point where they could exit via acquisition. And that was tremendously positive and a great experience. But before jumping into my fourth startup, I realized I want to do this for myself. I don't want to keep building for other people. I want to build for myself. And so for the last two years, I have been doing just that, where my focus, my primary focus is buying businesses, small local businesses, because that is one of the most meaningful things I think I could do with my skill set to contribute to our society. I have accidentally fallen into coaching business owners because I meet so many business owners and I'm looking to buy the business. And what I find is that I just am talking to a stuck business owner. They don't actually want to sell, and they probably actually shouldn't, but they've tried a bunch of different things. So I guess I'll talk to this guy about selling my business. And I don't want to just buy a business. So I do coach a select few of business owners to get them to where they want to go or break free through a ceiling that they've been experiencing.

Gary Pageau 2:34

Aaron Powell Tell me a little bit about the scale and the scope of those three businesses you worked on before, just so our audience has an idea of the type of things that you were working on before you decided that local was the thing to do.

David Hori 2:48

Yeah. So I would usually be brought in somewhere post-Series A, Series B. So you've got a little bit of money and some kind of traction around like a minimum viable product. You is probably, you know, to put it in simpler terms, there's 20 people or less on the team at this point. Right. And I would come in and again do a lot of the hiring to put the key players in place that we're going to start building teams around and that process that those people are going to need, the systems that those people are going to need to be maximally effective. And then the last piece is aligning them around the vision of the founder to make sure everybody's rowing in the right direction. And so yeah, about 20 people or fewer. And then taking it to about 200 people was usually about the time where I was most impactful at the next startup.

Gary Pageau 3:42

Aaron Powell How were you involved in the exiting process? Was that of those people? Was it you know I'm just curious as to what you felt your role was? Was it advising the the founders saying, hey, listen, you know, it's time to hand this thing off, or what you felt your role was?

David Hori 4:00

The the big exit that I contributed to was the most recent company called Carmera, which did produce digital maps basically using photo imagery from cell phones. And my contribution there was to ensure one of the big things that drives value in a in a exit is you're acquiring the team and the talent. Right. And you want all of them to transition into the new entity. Exactly. And so creating an amazing plan to ensure that we understand what the plan is from the acquiring entity, that everybody is engaged and continuing to build full steam ahead, because if you take your foot off the gas, that's also highly problematic. And if they decide to pull the ripcord and parachute out before you close it, that's all or right after you close it, that's also problematic. So really maintaining the cohesiveness of the team was a major contribution. And then actually, we were acquired by an entity that didn't have a lot of the systems in place and processes and teams in place already. It was a new entity. And so they very quickly were looking at how are you guys doing things? How do you guys get things done like hiring or you know, a lot of different basic things that I'd already built? And I they got to use us as the template because they were acquiring a couple of different entities, including um a division from Lyft at the same time.

Gary Pageau 5:24

So it sounds to me like you're really tuned into the people side of the business. What's your background in terms of do you have like a HR background?

David Hori 5:33

Yeah. So I tend to tell people these days that I'm a recovering HR professional.

Gary Pageau 5:38

Okay.

David Hori 5:39

Okay. But yes, my corporate career began in HR at one of the largest law firms in the world. And and so that was the the kind of kickoff to things. And when I I it's a it's created quite the bias in my world. Right. So when I start hearing about business problems, I I keep digging and digging and digging to get the root cause. And usually because of that bias, I conclude, oh, you've got a people problem. Sometimes it's a process problem, but oh, you've got a people problem.

Gary Pageau 6:06

Right. So so so company culture is really something that's super important to you and into a company. When you're worried when you're talking to someone who is like a startup founder, let's say it's your typical guy who gets a burr under his saddle that he's gonna change the world with his thing, his widget, and you know, he wants to build a company to do that. You know, there's a lot that needs to happen there in terms of getting people on board with that vision. So can you talk a little bit about that vision sculpting process that needs to happen?

David Hori 6:40

One of the things that I look for when I talk to founders is they have to be able to articulate that vision in super simplistic terms because I need small and easy words. And then I turn around and use those small, easy words to go make disciples of other people. And if they can't, then it's not gonna be a good fit fit for me. And that's that that also kind of has followed me into my business acquisition journey.

Gary Pageau 7:06

Right.

David Hori 7:06

I've got to be able to understand it. If it if it's important to Warren Buffett, it's it should be important to me too. So businesses that I can understand and that vision. But there is a discovery process in also identifying, I don't just wanna build a widget to use your word. I want to be aligned with a mission or with values. Those are two things that are really important to me when I'm looking at different founders. You know, one of the most the strongest missions was to, again, with Carmara, reduce the number of vehicular deaths that are human-related errors. So our technology could really do that in a in a meaningful way. That's something that you can assemble a lot of brilliant minds around. People are taking pay cuts and leaving Google and all kinds of places to come come contribute to that. And I'm excited about that. And that translates to what we're able to build. Does that answer your question?

Gary Pageau 8:01

Yeah, yeah, no, very much so, very much so. So let's talk a little bit of what's what's segue from digital technology to help cars see and know their surroundings to just your general small business where maybe someone is growing, they're doing okay, and they don't know where to go, right? They don't know whether to sell, where they know whether to keep going, they don't have a secession plan. Someone calls you up and says, I need help with that. Where do you start?

David Hori 8:32

I'm engaging in these conversations with business owners through the lens of, I think I want to buy your business. That that's that's usually how the conversation starts. And a part of that discovery process is understanding what is the owner's role in the business today. I often ask, like, tell me about the hats that you're wearing in the day-to-day. And that really helps me identify, you know, oh, doesn't sound like there is a succession plan. It sounds like they are carrying a lot of the business on their shoulders, or maybe they've done a pretty good job of putting a team in place to help distribute that load. So that's a major thing that I'm looking at through the business acquisition lens. The other thing, though, is that sometimes you find that the business growth is limited because the the owner has become the bottleneck. And that's another thing that I'm that that question kind of teases out. It's like when you're wearing all the hats, is it possible to scale at some point beyond you can't work more than 60 hours a week. So your your growth is limited and capped just by nature of that. And there's things we can do to resolve that as well.

Gary Pageau 9:35

Aaron Powell Because I think that's especially in in the photo imaging industry, right? There's a lot of family-owned legacy businesses, been in family maybe two or three generations. And there is so much imbued knowledge within a business like that where we've always done it this way. These are the processes, it's all in our head. But if someone like you were to come to them and say, hey, I'm listeners, I'm interested in buying your camera store, your photo lab, your photo studio, where's your operations manual? It's in it's in your head. It does no good.

David Hori 10:11

100%. I could not you can't overstate how important the that manual is, the process, the repeatable process by somebody else. I always, you know, ask, like, what happens if you get abducted by aliens? I like to use that rather than you know the boss or some other analogy. Exactly. What happens if you get abducted by aliens? And do people know what to do? Is there a process? Can the average person follow that process? Or is it just, you know, like, oh, my assistant who's been with me for 20 years and they're the only one that understands how my brain thinks, and and you know, if they leave or get abducted by aliens, then we're really up a creek without a paddle.

Gary Pageau 10:46

Right. So, and it's not just like the financial side, right? It's it's the operation, it's the why we do things this way. I think that's one of the things that where people mess up when they do an operations manual or procedures manual. They just they just talk about what they do, but not why they do it.

David Hori 11:06

Yeah. And one of my favorite methods for even solopreneurs and and you know, business owners that are by themselves or running a just, you know, a bare skeleton crew is called the camcorder method, right? And so you're filming yourself doing something that you do every day, and you know, whether it's on a computer or actually physically doing it, and then you're able to add the narration on top of it. And that's tremendously powerful to be able to just put in a central place for that assistant, you know, the the new hire or whatever, to get up to speed on things and how we do it and why. And you you film yourself doing a single task three times, you know, like how you kick off a podcast, you know, you film that three times. Somewhere between the three times, even if you're kind of not super consistent, they're gonna get enough of it so that they can do it 80% as good as you, which I think is really the goal. Like if somebody else can do it 80% as good as you, then you have yourself a pretty solid employee there.

Gary Pageau 12:04

Aaron Powell So when you are talking about a business to someone a business to acquire, what are they telling you the reasons why they're leaving or want to exit? What's the reasons why people are telling you they want to exit a business?

David Hori 12:17

The reasons span an entire spectrum from where like I physically can't keep up and keep doing this any longer to I'm unwilling to miss another family member's, you know, key milestone because I'm too busy working, to I've had hobbies that I've wanted to pursue all my life, or you know, you know, time is is super precious for some external reason. I had to talk to somebody recently whose mother lives in Spain, and you know, she's unwell. So he wants to be able to spend more time in Spain with his mother, and this is the you know, the window of you know, to do that. So the the the reasons usually vary. What the unspoken thing, though, right is usually they're tired of carrying the weight by themselves, right? The risk by themselves and being able to share that or offload it. And then you know, many people haven't thought about or been in a position to like invest in like say a retirement plan or 401k or something. And the business is that retirement uh potential. So those are some things that usually come up.

Gary Pageau 13:26

And sadly, since most businesses don't actually sell, or if they don't sell, they don't sell for what people want. That's not an actually a great way to plan your retirement.

David Hori 13:36

No. No. And that's again why I for select business owners, I will coach them. I want to see them win. And whether I buy the business or not, a lot of times their livelihood and well-being in read those retirement years is tied to the business being reworked. They need a new playbook to implement and a couple of years of runway to do that to get the business to a place where it's it is meaningful.

Gary Pageau 14:03

How long have you been evaluating businesses for purchase? How long have you been doing this? This a couple years, you said? Yeah, a couple years. So has there been one where what's the one that got away?

David Hori 14:16

Gosh, you ask great questions. I love this. The one but I try not to lose sleepover still. Very unique niche. Real estate lending company. One of the best ways to make money is to make money using other people's money.

Gary Pageau 14:36

Right, exactly.

David Hori 14:37

And uh this business was in my own backyard. It wasn't listed publicly, and it prints money. And I wanted to, given that you're at an interesting intersection where there's a lot of complexity and and things that you probably need to know about from a regulatory perspective and things when you're dealing with banking, finance, real estate, those kinds of things.

Gary Pageau 15:03

Barrier to entry, obviously.

David Hori 15:05

Oh, yeah. And also, I have a really high bar for myself. And if I'm dealing with other people's monies and other people's retirement funds and all those kinds of things, I want to make sure that that I can deliver with certainty on that investment. So I went and found a partner who already owned a business in that space, and we decided to partner together on this deal. I brought the deal to him. And, you know, I there's a post on my Instagram about this, you know, the gift of a failed partnership. The long story short is we realized that on paper we looked great. In actuality, we were not compatible. And so we ended up splitting ways. And I just said, you know what? May the best man win. And I shouldn't have been surprised that you know the business owners went with the person that already owns a real estate lending company instead of the guy that's just freshly jettisoned out of startup land. But that one hurts.

Gary Pageau 16:04

Not being picked, right, is always a is a thing that you feel deeply inside, right? Indeed. Indeed.

David Hori 16:11

But God has a plan for everything. And as much as that one is the one that got away, and I still think about the margins and the opportunity to really grow that, um, there's a reason for it.

Gary Pageau 16:20

Tell us a little bit about some of the things you specifically look for in opportunities like that. I mean, not every business is, of course, a business where you get to, you know, lend with other people's money. That's there's not a lot of those out there. You know, are they all financial or is it technology or is it a niche? What's what's the thing that David is looking for?

David Hori 16:43

Sure. So I look at just about any business that comes to me organically through my network. If if you were to call me up and say, David, I know a business owner that's looking to sell, I would connect with them. My outreach, though, I'm specifically making contact with two distinct searches. One of them is more tech related, which is in the realm of e-commerce. Right. So people that are selling widgets, as you said, not digital products, but at a physical widget, is something that would be really interesting to me because I I understand the business systems and the the opportunities to really squeeze operational efficiency out of an online business. So that's one. The second is kind of interesting and more obscure, which is water-related. When I say water-related, think well drilling, think water pumps, think you know, like septic filtration, those kinds of things. But mostly well drilling and pumps. And when you when if you have any exposure to the world of you know buying small businesses, everybody and their mother is fighting over an HVAC company or an electrical company, right? The same reasons why they're attracted to those businesses apply to the water industry. There's no succession plan. They've been overlooked by technology, it's fragmented, all these things, but nobody's looking at it. And I have a partner that's a third generation well driller. And so we're that's the that's the one I'm doubling, tripling down on uh water-related opportunities.

Gary Pageau 18:14

Wow, that is a first for my podcast, is a person seeking out well drilling opportunities. That's amazing. Happy to be that first. Well, that brings me to another question is when you're talking to people about buying their business, like you said, a lot of people think of it as their retirement, right? Or they want to cash out, be done, go to Spain, do whatever. How receptive are people to let's say an earnout scenario?

David Hori 18:49

I have never had that first seller from the first from the outset say, Hey, I'm really hoping for some seller financing. Okay. Everybody wants to be cash out, they just want to be done. They don't want any strings tied to the business. Occasionally I'll meet with somebody that actually enjoys a very specific piece of the business and they would love to continue doing that if they could offload the rest. And that's that's a really productive conversation. But everybody wants to be cashed out. Same reason why very few people who win the lottery, you know, say, ah, go ahead, pay me three million every year. That's enough. No, I I for some reason need 72 million today. Like you can't even spend it, but okay.

Gary Pageau 19:30

Yeah, exactly.

David Hori 19:31

So the answer is very few, but that's where most businesses get done. You mentioned earlier, and and you seem to be you know educated on the subject, most businesses don't sell. And that's a huge contributing factor, is the unwillingness to even consider it, or you know, and part of that is brokers can can add friction to that, right? Like the broker is ultimately compensated by the the dollar figure that gets traded at close, and they want that to be big. They don't want it spread across years, they don't want their dues to be spread over years. So they're incentivized to encourage you to like take a lump sum. But if you want the deal done, that's almost critical, especially today. In the last six months, there have been changes to the SBA and other programs that are government-backed that used to be really powerful for me as a buyer that have almost removed the incentive of using institutional financing. Critical. I can't overstate how important that is. If for no other reason, then you're telling me you've got a great business that you believe in and I should buy, and I'm saying I want to tie the continued success of the business to you pay you being paid out. And you're like, yeah, I don't know about that. Right. That's a that's a red flag to me.

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Gary Pageau 20:48

Right. Okay, yeah. I mean, that's an interesting way to say it because I know, you know, again, some people do the their earnout thing, and because that's the only way they can actually sell the business, because they actually the the the buyer has put out a lower amount, but you'd rather have them not be involved.

David Hori 21:25

No, earnouts are I think tremendously powerful, and that's I have a strong preference for that. Because like if there's any kind of disagreement in the value of your business, right? Okay, let's I I can I'll trust you, but we're gonna tie it to an earnout. You say you can do this, let if it does it, then I'm gonna give you more money. You should get more money. I am 100% for earnouts, and those are those are really powerful.

Gary Pageau 21:48

So let's talk a little bit about the valuation piece, because that seems to be another thing where there's a some bones of contention, if you will, right? Because I always tell people when they talk about you know, buying a business, what someone who's buying the business, they're not buying, they're they're they're not giving you a reward for what you've already done. They're buying the future, they're buying the what what you're gonna make out of the future. So, what are some of the things you're looking for in evaluation that you can optimize?

David Hori 22:18

Yeah, I think maybe I I might have a different perspective. And I'm glad we're we're talking about this because most business owners, I think, share your perspective. You're paying for the future. I can't go and borrow money or get an investor, or even shouldn't it be ill-advised for me to pay bring my own money into a deal based on the future. Right. I can only pay for what you've actually done. That's been substantiated. And so unfort it's unfortunate that, you know, in the last five years, we've got, you know, COVID and the tariffs and those kinds of things, which really make your revenue lumpy or even trending in the wrong direction the last couple of years. But that's going to happen if I also own the business, you know, at some point. So I have to account for that as part of the calculation. And so I'm actually paying for actual performance. And that's where a lot of the disagreements between valuation, we're like, well, I could be. I had back in 22, I did, you know, well, it's not, it hasn't done that for three years. And that's what I'm going to, you know, base it on. So I don't I don't know if that answered your question. No, it does.

Gary Pageau 23:27

It does, because you know, that is one of the things where I think, you know, there are people who believe that, like you said, you know, it's doing X amount, so I deserve Y amount when the person looking at it wants Z amount based on what they think the actual conditions are and what the future will hold. And but you like you said, you have to do that valuation on kind of the history of the business. And the person who's taking it over has to look at it and say, well, can I do that or better? And I imagine most people are thinking, I can do better.

David Hori 23:55

Yes. Now, I will say there are different kinds of buyers, and you should solicit as many different kinds of buyers as you can. So I'm a cash flow buyer. I'm looking at how much profit your business is generating and looking at can I use those profits to grow the business even more?

Gary Pageau 24:15

Right.

David Hori 24:15

But there are other kinds of buyers, like a trade buyer. So if you, you know, again, own a camera shop or 10 of them, and you want to sell, somebody that's already in the camera industry and looking to expand into a new geography can pay a lot more than I'm gonna be willing to because I'm gonna look at how do I squeeze more out of these 10 locations where they're like, I get a whole new territory, a new customer base that I can cross-sell so they can pay more. They have access to different kinds of funding and things like that. And likewise, there's you know, strategics and and private equity that are like, we're gonna make a play in this space. We already have a a theory around camera shops. And so this is just 10 of a hundred that we're gonna bundle together and sell to somebody else. And they also can pay differently because they're not gonna run it for 10 years. They're gonna bundle it together, sell it to somebody else, and it's somebody else's problem, right? So there's different kinds of the buyers out there with that are able to offer different things. But being a cash flow buyer, I'm really focused on profit.

Gary Pageau 25:17

So, what would be a typical multiple of a company you would look at in terms of like net earnings? It varies by industry.

David Hori 25:24

Sure, sure, sure. And the biggest driver to that multiple is actually I I call it EBITDA, other people call it sometimes SDE, like seller discretionary earnings, which is basically the annual benefit a business owner would expect to receive financially from running their business. But like at the like, if you're making $500 in SDE or EBITD, it's gonna be pretty close to one, two, two and a half multiple. Right. Again, depending on the industry. Right. Industries like software, where you I can make a software widget once and sell it to an unlimited number of customers, higher multiples. Right. And then as you move up the scale in in EBITDA or SDE, so from 500,000 to a million, three million, 10 million, that's where the multiples really start to increase in step functions as well. And so the the frustrating answer is it depends. But like at the place that I'm looking at, you know, the SBA won't even approve more than like a two or two and a half X multiple on most most small businesses.

Gary Pageau 26:24

Right. In my industry, the photo imaging industry, there's usually a lot of capital equipment involved. Right. Right. There's, I mean, you in certain time because it's a highly seasonal business, right? Usually a fourth quarter business when most of the profits and sales come through, you know, then a lot of ways, some of those folks are a lot like a retailer in that, in that, in that aspect. But again, they usually have equipment where they're producing products and having these things. And so how does that factor in to somebody who's heavily interested in the cash flow side as part of that equation? Is you know high capex a problem?

David Hori 26:57

It's not. And again, it it it's highly dependent on the business. Yeah. So like photo imaging businesses, well drilling is extremely capital-intensive, right? Those assets to but to buy a well driller is is incredibly big high barrier to entry.

Gary Pageau 27:17

Yeah.

David Hori 27:18

And that again, I tailor my offers around the deal that I'm looking at. And so if I'm looking at an e-commerce business that has no inventory, no assets, I'm gonna have to bring to bear a different strategy than a photo imaging business that has tons of assets. And there's like asset-based lenders and all kinds of different ways that you can, you know, figure out ways to acquire that business. And I think that that's one of the best ways you can do it. You can grow, whether I'm just looking to get into the business or grow through acquisition, which is something that I think many business owners haven't even thought about. But it's like, oh, if I want to grow my well-drilling business, I could go buy a new rig. But what what if I bought this other guy's rig that, you know, he's a single, single man operator looking to retire? That could be a really compelling opportunity for you to acquire the the asset, so to speak, in a in a different way.

Gary Pageau 28:17

What are some of the things that you're seeing in the world right now that are affecting kind of the acquisition world? Because like you said, you mentioned private equity earlier. And in certain segments of the photo imaging industry, primarily, you know, certain portrait segments, there's a lot of uh private equity activity there right now. You know, that's certainly out there. There's not a lot of options for people to go public these days, it just doesn't seem to be a very well welcoming market for that. Do you just call up a business broker? What is it that you would recommend to somebody who's looking to sell?

David Hori 28:53

I think again, I'm I'm not trying to be an attorney, but oh no, of course not. Of course not. The answer is it depends, which is their favorite answer. Sure. Sure. But for most local small businesses, going to a broker is probably the path of least resistance.

Gary Pageau 29:13

Okay.

David Hori 29:14

And I will say that with the caveat of not all brokers are created equal. So it's worth interviewing them to understand and asking if they have referenciable customers.

Gary Pageau 29:25

So it's almost like it's almost like engaging with any other business professional, right? Whether it's like a real estate agent or an attorney or someone like that. Everyone's got that correct. They may do things differently.

David Hori 29:37

Correct. So brokers will do a lot of the heavy lifting around, you know, selling your business for you. And there's pros and cons to that, but you know, that could be a good place. One thing that's not as people don't just don't know about it, but I actually, if it were me selling my business, I would seek out just an exit planner. The exit planner is going to help me put in in place the key things that are most important to buyers that drive revenue. And I'm going to start that process ideally three years before I actually want to sell and I'm run out of gas and burned out, but at least 12 months before that. You know, to start putting in place, you know, that the operating manual you referenced and the team and those kinds of things so that I can maximize that exit and I I have an idea of what my business is worth. And then if I want to engage a broker at that point or just navigate that myself, I have all the options on the table with uh uh the maximum business value potential. Right. So Cool.

Gary Pageau 30:39

So tell me a little bit about what top line operators actually does. Like is that is that your umbrella for like your your all your interests?

David Hori 30:50

It is. It's kind of the catch all. And again, my North Star, my primary focus is buying businesses.

Gary Pageau 30:56

Right.

David Hori 30:56

And I I've added to the website, you know, this this piece about, you know, working with business owners because again, I just encountered a shocking number of business owners that were trying to sell or talking to me about selling that I just really didn't think that was what best served them. And so I I didn't set out to be a consultant or a coach of business owners and helping people navigate preparing to exit, but I kind of fell into that. So top line operators is is the umbrella that kind of captures and encapsulates both of those activities.

Gary Pageau 31:30

Cool. And so where do people go for more information to learn about Top line operators?

David Hori 31:36

Yes. So obviously our website is www.toplineops, OPS, that's short for operators.com. And I am at most active on the socials on Instagram and on LinkedIn. So you can find me, David Hori, H O R I on LinkedIn. And then Topline Operators, again, it's just at ToplineOps on the Instagram.

Gary Pageau 32:01

Great. Well, I hope people who are listening to this get a lot out of it. I know I did. I had some misconceptions and I didn't know a lot about well drilling, so this is good. So I really appreciate your time and your expertise, David. It was great to meet you.

David Hori 32:14

Likewise. And I'll just throw this out there too. If if you're a business owner and you have questions uh about exiting your business, if you're looking for resources, give me a follow on Instagram and reach out to me. I'm happy to point you in the right direction, send some free resources your way that'll get you started. Usually, like the what's the first step for most business owners? I can send you that playbook and happy to do that for your audience.

Gary Pageau 32:41

Oh, great. Appreciate that. Thank you so much.

David Hori 32:44

My my gift to you, and thank you.

Erin Manning 32:49

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