Emotional Intelligence: The Untapped Resource in Your Workplace with Michelle Howe

The quiet power brokers in your organization aren't always who you think. Michelle J Howe, founder of Empath Evolution, reveals a startling truth on the Dead Pixels Society podcast: Roughly 25% of your workforce consists of highly empathic individuals who dramatically influence your company's energy, culture, and success.

As Howe shares her transformation from structured accountant to empathic mentor, she uncovers the hidden dynamics playing out in workplaces everywhere. These empaths—people who can absorb and process others' emotions—often excel in sales, leadership, and relationship-building roles. Yet without proper understanding and boundaries, they risk burnout, exhaustion, and ultimately leaving your organization.

"When you're very empathic, you best beware," Howe cautions, "because you're going to need that mental health day." She distinguishes between true empathy and those who use emotional intelligence manipulatively, offering practical guidance for identifying and nurturing empathic talent during interviews. Her insights challenge the dismissive notion that emotional intelligence is merely "touchy-feely" business speak, instead positioning it as a critical competitive advantage.

Howe discusses toxic workplace personalities and their outsized impact. "If companies recognize this is a lose-lose situation," she explains, employees must be held accountable for the energy they bring to work daily. This responsibility extends to leaders, who set the emotional tone through their own behavior and communication style.

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Chapters

• 16:46 [Ad] Real Talk About Marketing
• 17:34 (Cont.) Emotional Intelligence: The Untapped Resource in Your Workplace with Michelle Howe

Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau. Today we're joined by Michelle J Howe, who is with the Empath Evolution, and she's coming to us from Syracuse, New York. Hi, Michelle, how are you today?

Michelle Howe: 0:32

Awesome, Gary, how are you?

Gary Pageau: 0:33

I'm doing great. Before we get into, you know your business as a mentor and a person who helps other people. Where did you get your start?

Michelle Howe: 0:42

I started. I was born on March 25th 1968.

Gary Pageau: 0:47

No, I mean in the business world. How did you get in the business world?

Michelle Howe: 0:50

Well, you know, when I was young, my mom and dad they my mom especially, she was really she took care of all the finances. We had rental properties and I take care of the books and everything I really like. Well, this is so interesting. So I went to school for accounting because I was really good at math, really good at solving puzzles, I was really good at seeing how everything fit together and it came easy to me.

Michelle Howe: 1:16

I've always been like curious, introspective, analytical, but went into accounting and I actually tried to take a psychology course. Okay, I'm like, you know, because I just loved analyzing people and I took this course and I'm like this is such bs. I'm like this is not the way that people are and I'm like I cannot take this course, this makes no sense. So, of course, I graduated with accounting and computers. I went, I became a CPA. I did consulting and did business plan advising. I worked with entrepreneurs. My intuition, the way I was moving through life, I had some unusual things come my way. You know, like anybody else, when you get hit by a two, by four, or when your life takes a 90 degree turn and you're not sure why it turned. You didn't turn it Like I just dove really deep into the personal development area to figure myself out. Okay.

Michelle Howe: 2:29

This was when I was almost about. I was about 40 years old. You know everybody's got their own little story or big story. Something goes awry right. For me it was. I don't understand why something is coming to my life, why I'm confused by this. I don't understand. I could wreck my life really. Why am I making the decisions that I'm making? I started to question myself, and before then everything was pretty. I'm doing this and I'm doing that. This is how this goes. Life made sense to me. Right.

Michelle Howe: 3:04

This specific example. My behavior was, my choices didn't quite make sense and I noticed that I was making excuses. I thought I was smarter, I thought I had it all figured out, and you don't have it all figured out.

Gary Pageau: 3:21

The older you get, the less you have it all figured out. I find out.

Michelle Howe: 3:25

Well, you know, when you find out that you really don't have it all figured out. The older you get, the less you have it all figured out. I find out. Well, you know, when you find out that you really don't maybe know everything, or maybe it was a book you didn't read. You know, you were the smartest person in the room and then all of a sudden, gosh, what is this about? I didn't know this was even possible to that end. I went through like a huge shift. I was depressed, searching, looking, put myself into therapy. You tell me what is wrong. You know why. Why did this thing come into my life and what does this mean? I'd like to think that I knew what I was doing.

Gary Pageau: 3:59

I mean honestly, if you go back to your, you know interested in numbers and and accounting and things like that, that's putting things in the right place, right.

Michelle Howe: 4:06

That's really what it's about it's about making sense of the world around me, right?

Michelle Howe: 4:10

exactly this goes here and because of that and I didn't have an answer for it. So, um, I went into therapy and after six months I looked at the lady. I go listen, whatever you're selling, whatever you're thinking, this doesn't make any sense from my experience. This isn't helping, and I actually, I actually went to a psychic fair and I went around and I looked around. I'm like one of these women is going to help me and I'm going to know who it is, and I did. I found someone. I had a reading.

Michelle Howe: 4:44

She was really seasoned medium and she told me this story. That just blew me away and I'm like what? It wasn't just, she told me a story. I could feel that what she was saying, right, felt emotionally like completely, yeah, she completely gets it. This story, this synopsis of what she's explaining to me, makes perfect sense from my experience. I started devouring a little bit of what was outside of the norm way of looking at life and, mind you, I've always been that deep person, I've always looked at things more and it just kind of got back to my roots. Yes, I do believe in intuition. Yes, I do believe in things are meant to be. Yes, I do believe there's an attraction for certain. Well, yes, I do believe I can feel like I would be able. Whenever I would meet and my husband always said there was must be something wrong with me I'd go to conferences or seminars or wherever, and I would have people sharing their most deepest, painful moments with me. Right.

Michelle Howe: 5:51

And I felt so like oh well, that's fine, you know I'm honored, it's fine I'm listening to them, but that that was actually a thing Right.

Gary Pageau: 6:04

It was a thing that happened.

Michelle Howe: 6:05

A thing that sort of didn't happen to everybody. Right.

Michelle Howe: 6:12

But it was happening to me, it had always happened to me. But now I really got jolted from this last experience enough that I'm going to pay attention to what this is. Sure, because I'm smarter than what this is Like I can technically. I'm going to pay attention to what this is because I'm smarter than what this is Like I can technically. I'm very intuitive, I can read people very well. I'm like how could something get the best of me? So here's that, like I don't want to say ego, but confidence in that. No, tell me what this is. So what I found out was that I had always been very empathic. What that means is not just that you can feel other people, you understand them, but people you can uplift another person just by sharing space with them, shift the way that you're. You know, here's this pain coming out, and by talking to me they leave feeling better. Sure.

Michelle Howe: 7:09

I never realized that I was impacted. I just was listening. Right.

Michelle Howe: 7:14

But all my life I would get. I had like emotional roller coasters at different points. I'm like, why am I so emotional? I'm like I am freaking moody sometimes, right, why the heck am I moody? And I'm like, why am I so emotional? I'm like I am freaking moody sometimes, right, am I moody. And I'm like I could never logically put that together. I'm like, well, I don't know, it must be just being a woman. I go through my cycles and this is what it is. I'm moody.

Michelle Howe: 7:36

But what I found out was that actually, some of us are so empathic that we not only can understand another person, we can lighten the load that other people carry. We make people feel better. A lot of times we go into, we become social workers, psychologists, right. But when I started looking around, I'm like, oh my God, I didn't know this was a thing, right.

Michelle Howe: 8:05

And when I look around, I see a lot of people that are empathic, and then I see them depressed, and then I see them drinking a lot, and then I like I'm tuning into all these people. I'm like they don't realize that they're exchanging energy with other people, right, and that exchange can impact them in a negative way, depending on how they're engaging, how much they care, how much do they empathize. So that's where I learned about energetic boundaries, not just regular boundaries Right, and you can really feel another person. It's like you open, they have an access to you and you have access to them. It can be very intimate, it can be very intrusive, it can be very damaging. You can walk away feeling exhausted, fatigued, like think about it in a business setting Right, the guy comes in the room for a meeting and he's a jackass. Everybody knows he's a jackass. Right.

Michelle Howe: 9:05

The energy of the room for a meeting and he's a jackass. Everybody knows he's a jackass. Right, the energy of the room completely drops. Right, nobody's saying a word, nobody dares to say a word, right, right. So it's think of it, as you have stories out there narcissist, empath. Right, the narcissist just wants this, everything they want. Right, they're taking and the empath is giving. And I'm like, wow, that doesn't really paint empaths in a good light. There's a codependence going on there. But if you talk to people that are very empathic, they're very caring, they want to help other people.

Michelle Howe: 9:38

They need the best in the other person, then you know, of course you get the one that's a little bit more savvy in the other person. Then you know, of course you get the one that's a little bit more savvy. No, I'm not dealing with this negativity Right. This isn't happening. But a lot of times, like I've met some of my very good friends that started and they've been clients. Michelle, I went through this drinking thing. I just couldn't do. I didn't know what to do. I was overwhelmed. There's too much I don't want to say. They don't even describe it as noise. They just I just need a beer. I just I just need something because my head's spinning. And actually a lot of salespeople are naturally quite empathic. So that's what makes someone a very good salesperson and gain that level of trust. But then you know you find people that know how this intuitive connection to another person and they use it to benefit themselves. They use it in a negative way. So, technically.

Michelle Howe: 10:39

No, you're not empathic, you're just using that empathy. You're not empathic, you're just using that empathy. And what happens when you use that empathy and you're using it to manipulate or to gain advantage or to really find the weak spots in another person and exploit them? Right. Right, that would be labeled a narcissist, if we were talking about labels, right. Right.

Michelle Howe: 10:59

Yeah, right. So at the end of the day, I looked at everything and I was doing my accounting, my entrepreneurial training, and I was meeting different people and I'm like, well, I understood them because I understood the vision of what they were trying to create and I'm very creative myself and I'm like I can help you with your business and this helps, but I'm like I'm more interested in the person that's in front of me rather than your business.

Gary Pageau: 11:27

People are your business right.

Michelle Howe: 11:29

People are. I mean, I see people as we're here to grow, we're here to learn, we're here. Oftentimes we go along with what's in front of us, we're making the things. Oftentimes we're a little unaware, unconscious to our own emotions, what we truly feel, because we're always looking out at the world. We're looking out for love, we're looking out for success, we're looking out for what am I doing next? What's happening? Very few of us spend the time to look or even notice that what we have inside is really what makes us happy or unhappy. Right, we're always looking to feed something from the outside, whereas I look at it as an unfolding that some of us are here to really do amazing things. And the sky's the limit, and your childhood was or wasn't, doesn't need to continue to carry on. What you create in your life, whether you are wounded, traumatized, um labeled, you feel misunderstood. Right the answer is empowerment the answer is empowerment.

Michelle Howe: 12:41

The answer is to get a lot more comfortable with the unseen, the intuitive, the balance of male, masculine and feminine, the logic in the, in the feeling, right. You know, the most important thing in life is how you feel. Most of us will find different things to patch up so we feel good, we're distracted, whether it's an addiction, whether it's exercise, whether it's a hobby, we are finding things to help us be happy. Nothing wrong with that, it's good.

Michelle Howe: 13:20

But what if we are just not feeling great inside and not knowing we continue to do the same thing and we are not getting out of this negative cycle, like we're not listening to ourselves, we're not listening to how we feel, we're not prioritizing how we feel the thing is well, I need to do this, it's gotta be that, like okay, before you know, know it, your life is completely taking like your attitude, mental attitude, mental approach, energy level.

Michelle Howe: 13:54

Life doesn't look so great when you're not following something that's empowering you, that's uplifting you, like you're just doing what you need to do, right, right. And so many people follow that formula. So right now, through empath evolution, I set it up, I'm like I'm talking to empaths and then I'm like hold on. Most of the people don't even know their empaths. And even if they knew their empaths, so what right right, want people to understand that feeling emotions, all of that we distract ourselves from, is part of who we are, all of the things that we hide about ourselves, oh, I don't like. You know, we put on a mask, right?

Michelle Howe: 14:36

well I don't want people to know I'm I'm this way or that way. They might not. You know I'm a horrible person, I'm a negative person, like I have to put on this show, right right, but at the end of the day, this person's very insecure. I'm like no, we're all here to learn. We're all here to grow. We're here to evolve. So I'm an evolutionary guide because we're here evolving into the next version of ourselves every single day.

Gary Pageau: 15:02

So I have a couple of questions here because I kind of want to kind of steer this towards the business world, right, because obviously the business world is made up of people. Yes, and you know what I've discovered with talking to my people in my audience like you know, they're always trying to balance their workforce. Now, today's workforce is a little more challenging because it is so harder to find good people and all the other stuff. Challenging because it is so harder to find good people and all the other stuff, but you know. So what percentage of you know the workforce do you think is what you would call an empath? Now, I'm sure everyone has that to some ability. You know where they're there, they can they feel that, but you know where it's sort of like their thing. Is it five, you know?

Michelle Howe: 15:46

I would say a good 25% of the workforce is quite empathic.

Gary Pageau: 15:51

Okay, cause, cause, cause. I mean there certainly are people who are like the other way, that all they want to worry about anything.

Gary Pageau: 15:58

Right, and they're you know, and they just you know they want to do the process and they want to work with technology and not deal with people, and they're actually more comfortable dealing with technology or people, right? So I get that. So now you said, empathic people are more attuned to like, maybe sales functions or things like that. How do you like, when you're interviewing people for jobs or things, how do you like find those people out? Interviewing people for jobs or things, how do you like find those people out? Because I think, especially in the photo industry, you get people who are maybe interested in photography or technology, but they're not great salespeople, right? So can you talk a little bit about how you kind of pinpoint, in a business you know, a candidate who is more empathic, who actually may excel at sales?

Michelle Howe: 17:30

Okay, know, a candidate who is more empathic, who actually may excel at sales. Okay, well, an empathic person that excels in sales. If I was interviewing, I was talking to someone I would like to see where they are flexible, where they're open, where they're curious, they are looking at a win-win with another person. That is a person that's leaning in, that wants to do good, and the world is not just. You know, yes, we need a sale here, right, but what am I selling First off? First off, am I going to sell something that I believe in? This person is not just selling to sell. This person is selling because they believe in something.

Gary Pageau: 18:10

Right, okay, so there's.

Michelle Howe: 18:11

So there's a motivation there beyond just the financial it's not the almighty dollar that's the determinant, although it's a factor right, they've got a broader purpose in how they step forward. They show a curiosity.

Gary Pageau: 18:26

They show a how do you find out someone, shows a caring yeah, I was gonna say, I mean that's where I'm getting, at all right.

Gary Pageau: 18:33

I mean you've got yeah, you've got the person that got there. You know is your meeting in a room and you're, maybe you're meeting in a coffee shop for the first time to do an interview or something. You know what are. You know because clearly there's things you can and can't ask in an interview. I'm pretty, you know, I want to keep this all legal and all that other stuff. So so you know there's certain things with you know certain questions you can't ask or shouldn't ask, or better not ask.

Michelle Howe: 18:55

Looking at what I would do, which would be what I would do. I would ask leading questions. As you know, what is a learning experience that took you by surprise? What was an experience that you thought could have worked better, like you know? Can you give me some solutions to these things that might? How would you solve this problem happening in a group? What will be your go-to? So you're really trying to make a determination over does this person think outside the box at all? What is this person looking at? How do you denote a good fit? What is a good fit for you Asking leading questions? Where there's not one answer, it's how are they answering it? And then? So? This is why empathic leaders are needed more than ever, because when someone answers a question, you're not just taking what they say. You're listening to what they feel like. You're listening to the tone, you're listening to the words they choose. You're watching them to see where they look. When they look, it's like you're reading the person.

Gary Pageau: 20:04

They're looking at their watch while they're talking to you, the person.

Michelle Howe: 20:08

How conscientious are they? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How uplifted are they? And I can't say exactly from an HR perspective what is most appropriate Right. A lot of HR people are very empathic. You need to be able to deal with lots of different personalities. Yeah, yeah. Then an empathic person can shift, depending on who they're talking to, very quickly right when people get in trouble is when they are so empathic that they care.

Gary Pageau: 20:37

And they care too much, maybe for the workplace, maybe that might be a little.

Michelle Howe: 20:41

And they care too much. Or the problem is when you take things on and you don't know that you've taken them on and they exhaust you right and it's really about. Oh yes, on one hand, I would like people to be more empathic, because there's such a skill that comes it's a blessing, but on the other hand, if you're very empathic, you best beware, because we're going to exhaust you well, yeah, you're gonna, you're to need that mental health day, right.

Michelle Howe: 21:07

Yes, you need to manage how you connect with another person because everybody is completely different and I'll give you an example. So I have a curiosity. That's number one.

Michelle Howe: 21:19

I was doing some entrepreneurial coaching with a man and he was pretty amazing, like nice looking guy. He turned every woman's head that came into that place. You know, the first time in my life I ever noticed that, oh my God, I think they're actually like treating him like he's a piece of meat. Honest to God, I was like and so I started helping him with his business and I was curious about him and he showed me all this wonderful side. But I took a deeperienced at the point to see I learned a huge lesson from this man because I got a little too like. He loved talking to me, he loved coming to have and I'm like, well, that's fine, you know, I found him fascinating. But then this very negative, I would say abusive I get my way kind of man, Right. One point I think he called, I got a phone call and I think it was him, but I wasn't sure and I was home, Right, I'm like I'm not picking up the phone. Right.

Michelle Howe: 22:38

Time he saw me. No joke, he completely like you know you take your words and you can yell at someone or you can even whisper at someone, but depending on that intensity of how you aim those words at another person right I felt his words come right through me and like bang, it was like if he had like a gun, I would have gotten shot. It would have been that's.

Gary Pageau: 23:04

Because you didn't pick up the phone.

Michelle Howe: 23:06

Because I didn't pick up the phone.

Gary Pageau: 23:08

Hmm, hmm.

Michelle Howe: 23:09

What does that sound like? That sounds like the abusive you know Right Relationship, that, the dynamics that can happen. But my point is I didn't see it. I had never engaged with something like usually. Sure. But I didn't see it. And these dynamics are everywhere. And if you don't have that certain amount of knowledge of yourself, Sure.

Michelle Howe: 23:37

And how far into another person you go. So when you're curious, you do a deep dive, like every one of us I don't know if your audience will we all bring our energy forward and it's our right, but it's our energy right. Walk in the room, certain people you know, immediate here, they are right before they even say a word. Here they are, there's their presence right there. So, as managers, as business people, you're responsible for how you show up, how you feel. Feeling radiates out to other people, sure? So what do you want in your business? You want some radiating toxicity or do you want, um, you know, enthusiasm and innovation.

Gary Pageau: 24:20

yeah, I like that Radiating toxicity.

Michelle Howe: 24:25

Because those people exist.

Gary Pageau: 24:28

Oh, absolutely. And I guess my question there is let's say, for example, you take over a department in your corporate, you know, let's say, for example, you're running the binding department and you've got, then you have that person who radiates toxicity. What can you do about that? Because you're not talking about probably a trait that can be eradicated, if you will, without a great deal of therapy, which you're not there to do. It's a job.

Michelle Howe: 24:56

Yeah, what I would say to that is, if the companies and the businesses in this world and the leaders of this world recognize that this was a lose-lose situation, right, you cannot have those players there. And if you make it a condition of employment of we have these values, our values are this and we expect our people my husband works in corporate with a lot of people, right, and I understand the dilemma of the leaders and who's babysitting, who, right, who's taking care of what? Each person needs to be held responsible for what they bring to the table every day. And then some training that would. That would help them see a mirror in front of them. What's your behavior like? What is the, what's the downfall of this, of this behavior? Yeah, for you, but for everybody around us right.

Michelle Howe: 25:57

How do we make them take a closer look into who they are? And you do that by leading by example. We leaders take a closer look at how we show up, how we measure up in our approach in our language, our communication, our attitude.

Michelle Howe: 26:13

You know the mental space. There should be a standard for that. There's some points for that. This is how you show up, and you're showing up at a 10, 9 out of 10 days, right? Oh no, you're showing up at a 3 at best every day. Can we help our people, which are the most important resource in a company? Step it up to a 7 or 8?

Gary Pageau: 26:38

Right? Well, you know I mean what I was getting to is I think there's this sort of things that happens within companies and your husband, since he works at Corporate America, probably sees it a lot more yeah when you have people who are like, hey, they're good at their job. Let's say, for example, they're good at operating a piece of machinery and now we're going to make that person head of the department. Well, they may not even be a very good person, the right leader for that department, but because they've kind of reached a certain point in the business where we got to do something with this person, because they've been here for 10 years and they're looking to get promoted, but you may be putting somebody in a position who's ill-suited to deal with people.

Michelle Howe: 27:16

Yeah, right. Right, so I mean it's like. This is a huge topic actually, because you're trying to in any business, you're trying to find the right person for the right role and you're going to call it empathy or social um, social intelligence social intelligence, emotional intelligence, all of these things, all of those things are key elements, right, just because and not everybody is good at that right, exactly, at a certain level, everybody should be working to attain at least a five or six well, that's what I'm saying.

Gary Pageau: 28:01

I mean, you may be able to take a three to a five, but they're never going to get to a nine.

Michelle Howe: 28:04

No, no, they're not made for that. So then you just have to take people for where they're at. But if the language is a little bit like, I think, too easily we, I think it's actually even misunderstood. What does it mean to be emotionally intelligent? What does it mean to be empathic?

Gary Pageau: 28:23

Right, Well, in the business world it's like you know. Hey, that's a little too touchy feet, that even mean you know.

Michelle Howe: 28:30

Yeah, how do I even? But if you really look at the most successful leaders, they carry that right. They're able to connect, they do care and anything. If you're not empathic, are you narcissistic and how does that impact people? Right, what does every person need to understand? How they're engaging, how they show up. Does that work? You don't have to be a high-end empathic person. You just have to be a person that respects the space around you.

Gary Pageau: 28:59

Right? Or if you're a person who is not empathetic, but you have someone to report to you is just understand the situations you may be putting into them may be overwhelming them or emotionally exhausting them, right? How do you?

Michelle Howe: 29:12

that's a good point too. How do you manage somebody who is more empathic and more impacted by oh, you're yelling at me or I can't say anything in this meeting because, like, they need to be boosted up, they need to learn skills to shift up or they leave, is what happens. Yeah, this is not my, you know, this is not my rodeo show. I'm not going to stay here. You people are toxic to me, right, which is not what we want. We want a win-win across the board.

Gary Pageau: 29:40

Well, that's it, that's what I'm saying. I mean that person who you know the department head may find tiresome because they are empathic, may be one of the best people on the team because they work well with others.

Michelle Howe: 29:51

Right, so are there tools or programs or anything out there that employers can look at for this kind of thing? I don't think directly. Okay, and there are people out there teaching about wellness and teaching some empathy, but it's not enough and it's still seen as a weakness.

Gary Pageau: 30:15

Yeah, that's. That's kind of my point is that it's you know the weakness, you know what I mean, cause there's like the, you know the various emotional tests you can take. You know the NTJ or whatever. It is kind of testing. But you know I'm not sure they're they're doing the right function for that.

Michelle Howe: 30:30

They're categorizing what people are. So the NTJ, all that stuff, is categorizing you, but I'm talking about something that helps people become more centered in who they are, more confident, more clear, more communicative instead of hiding. Step forward. This is what stepping forward instead of being confused if you're not good enough, step forward.

Michelle Howe: 30:55

So it's personal development. But that personal development changes. How they show up at work changes everything. So if we can inject some of that development soft skill in a person to say hey, which areas, what emotions, how is your mental going, are you afraid? You know what? Almost like assessing them on a set of emotional balance type assessment. How are they doing? How are you doing? Sure, almost like assessing them on a set of emotional balance type assessment?

Michelle Howe: 31:23

How are they doing? How are you doing Sure, and then providing some resources, that some training, that is just overall high level to help them get a little clearer on solutions might be for them and then people can go deeper into it, because so many people, I mean our formative years are one to nine, one to seven, right, many people come into this world and they're raised by parents who only knew what they knew. Right.

Michelle Howe: 31:57

Love maybe, but there's also trauma maybe. So how do we level out? Because every person I know is healing, shifting, releasing things, dealing with emotions that they may not even know are playing out in the background, but their attitudes can be sharp and be not happy people. Either they hide it or they don't hide it. Either way is not a good thing. You know we have to go into psychotherapy for this, and is that a solution or is it something that? Let me help you understand this at a root level. Right.

Michelle Howe: 32:33

As this is a skill and a knowledge and you know when you see somebody acting out in the workplace, when you see someone miserable out in the workplace. When you see someone miserable, there's underlying reasons why that exists. Right. So, if you can come in, not specifically directing it at any one person- but, speak to the topic in general and speak to it as an important ingredient of success. It's inner success. So many people that I meet can accomplish all kinds of outer success. Right.

Michelle Howe: 33:06

But when you really get into the private world that they live in, they are not happy.

Gary Pageau: 33:12

Well, and do you think it's because they're trying to look for happiness in their work?

Michelle Howe: 33:16

Maybe work becomes a distraction. They become good at making money. They become good at this success formula that they've bought into. So instead of well, this is painful, over here I'm just going to do all the things I do good at. So people love me. Or I feel powerful because, or I feel like I'm a success, because look at my success, it's self-evident, it's right. Here I'm going to focus my attention on all my success and forget about what I'm gambling on a side away, forget about what I'm drinking away, forget about the fact that I'm lonely and people leave me right. Those are, you know, all part of healthy, healthy living. Healthy happiness. You can buy, you can try to go buy it, but there's plenty of poor people that are happy.

Gary Pageau: 34:07

Right, well, money can't buy happiness. That's what they say, right.

Michelle Howe: 34:10

That is true, very true.

Gary Pageau: 34:12

So where can people go to get more information about the things you do?

Michelle Howe: 34:19

They can go to my website.

Gary Pageau: 34:21

It's empath evolutioncom and you've got a lot of cool resources there. This is what I'm looking at.

Michelle Howe: 34:28

It's pretty awesome thank you, I do, I do. There's a quiz on the page, not that it's not the end dollar or the be all right, are you an empath? And then there is, you can subscribe and you'll get some free things. I send out free content and keep people informed. I do um a master, like I have a signature program that I move people through if they're interested in a community. That comes with that, so you know. But that's after an initial conversation and initial understanding of what you have going on. And if you really want to talk to me immediately, just email me at michellewith2l's, at empath, evolutioncom, and we'll set up a time.

Gary Pageau: 35:10

Great Michelle. It's been great talking to you. I've learned a lot, and I hope I think other people have too. So thank you so much and look forward to connecting with you in the future.

Michelle Howe: 35:18

That sounds great. Thank you, Gary

Erin Manning: 35:20

Thank you, Garrett.