The Dead Pixels Society podcast
News, information and interviews about the photo/imaging business. This is a weekly audio podcast hosted by Gary Pageau, editor of the Dead Pixels Society news site and community.
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The Dead Pixels Society podcast
AI-Powered Photo Curation, with Troy DeBraal, MediaViz
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Ever found yourself frantically scrolling through thousands of photos trying to find that one perfect shot you know exists somewhere? This frustration sparked the creation of MediaViz AI when founder Troy DeBraal's business partner slammed his phone down in a restaurant after failing to locate a crucial photo of his son. "Why can't you build something that can keep track of all my good photos and get rid of all this junk?" he demanded – and a revolutionary AI photo curation platform was born.
DeBraal shares how his background in document management and digital strategy uniquely prepared him to tackle the universal problem of photo overload. After spending years observing how people interact with technology across various industries, he recognized that helping people organize and find meaning in their expanding photo collections represented both a massive challenge and opportunity. MediaViz evolved into a sophisticated B2B platform that empowers businesses with Google-like capabilities through a simple API integration.
The conversation explores how MediaViz's "agentic AI" approach differs from traditional systems by acting intelligently on users' behalf rather than merely responding to commands. DeBraal explains how their technology creates personalized AI models that learn individual preferences in composition, subject matter, and aesthetics to provide truly customized curation. This approach has profound implications for several industries, including photo printing, where cart abandonment plagues photobook creation because consumers simply can't find
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau:Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Troy DeBraal, who's the CEO and founder of MediaViz. Ai Troy's coming to us from San Diego, California. Hi Troy, how are you today?
Troy DeBraal:Great. How are you doing, Gary?
Gary Pageau:I'm doing great. Hey, listen, you guys have those two letters in your name that everyone's talking about: AI. But before we get to that, how did you get started in this business?
Troy DeBraal:You know, I got started in this business in kind of a strange way, but maybe the best way for all businesses to get started, and that was with a real problem. I was sitting with my now business partner at a restaurant and he was looking through his phone for a photo of his son in some type of football pose that his son knew he had and his coach knew he had, and his wife knew he had, and just could not find this photo. And he just slammed his phone down on the table and he's like hey, you helped build giant software systems. Why can't you build something that can keep track of all my good photos and get rid of all this junk? So I don't have to do this.
Troy DeBraal:And I just thought for a moment why hasn't anybody solved that problem? Because I have that problem, he has this problem. So we started asking around and just everybody seemed to have the problem, from the individual consumers all the way up to the businesses. And so we said let's go solve this problem, like let's go not only do something for ourselves from a business-wise, but really something for the world. And really at that time this was 2017, 2018. You know, ai was a thing certainly deployed in a lot of places.
Troy DeBraal:Healthcare, you know the most but, we saw an opportunity to turn that technology into a solution for this problem and so dove in headlong into AI.
Gary Pageau:So what was your background prior to starting the business, which at that time was not called MediaViz, it was called something else which we'll talk about. But what was your background before that?
Troy DeBraal:Sure. So I had just come off of five years at KPMG. I was working previous to that at a rich web agency called Synergy and they were acquired by KPMG part of their management functions and advisory firm and really to head their experience division of how to go out and build these great experiences that they were experts at building the back end but, they weren't experts at building the experience.
Troy DeBraal:So that's what our agency did, and my role there was a digital strategist and, in kind of an odd way, for years my job was to follow around both consumers and employees and just watch them and do like anthropological studies of them and figure out in this context if they're in the bank or if they're on the field doing an installation or they're getting their taxes done, whatever it is what are their problems and how could software solve those problems and how do we design an experience that would motivate those people to actually engage with that software?
Troy DeBraal:I laid out the strategy for companies of if you wanted to build your next generation of software, this is what it should do and this is how it should work, and so this was kind of a natural problem for me to say I know how to solve this problem. Like let's dig into it, you know.
Gary Pageau:Was it in imaging specifically you had experience in, or was it more of a holistic view, broad range?
Troy DeBraal:Yeah, a really broad range. Yeah, I was working in healthcare and media and taxes and you know, internal to the company and golf and all over the place, because advisory touches a lot of those different enterprises across the board. They were all looking to do better software everybody, of course but my real history started in document management. When I first came out of college, I got my first job as a web designer for a blueprint automation company and their whole thing was to take all this masses into blueprints so that when you took a paper blueprint and digitized it to a TIFF and brought it into another system, you can have automatic scale and start making actual measurements on it. And so this went on for a few years and I learned the most valuable lesson there that we've applied in our current business, which is getting the documents where you want them to be is actually the toughest part of the problem.
Troy DeBraal:You can solve all types of problems for document management, but you got to get the stuff there first, and so I count myself real lucky that I started with blueprints and trying to move those around, and now I've settled on photos and videos.
Gary Pageau:Well, and that's one of the things is, you know, you kind of hit on a good point with. You know, a lot of the stuff that's being digitized now is, you know, older data that needs to be put in context right Now, in the case of architectural blueprints, you've got measurements and scales and elevations and all of those things, and with personal images or corporate images or commercial images, you've got other context. Was that something that you were looking at as you were kind of scaling? This is like what information can we extract out of an image?
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely. You know that was really how we approached it from the beginning was I had a history in document management and image extraction and essentially knowing that that information that gave context to the actual visual information had to carry with whatever that image format was, you couldn't have it in a separate database. You had to be able to encode that so that it went along with it. So the data that was created, the analytics that you produced, were equally valuable in the moment and one, two, three years down the road, and that's led to a lot of how we think about photos and producing not only analytics and curation and selection for them, but let's embed that information in the image so that when it goes on to its next destination, the benefit of what we've done stays with it.
Gary Pageau:So this is in 2017, 2018. Now the company was named something completely different. How have you adjusted over that period? Because, like you said, back then people were kind of fiddling with AI. There were some AI people out there, but it wasn't obviously what it is now in terms of time, attention and investment. So what was it like then and how have you grown and pivoted?
Troy DeBraal:You know we started with can we actually do this? Because as soon as we got into it again, back to context, then we could build all the power we wanted to. On the end of that, at the beginning, when we would go and pitch people and say, ai is going to do whatever you want to put in that gap, and they would be like, well, I don't know if we're quite ready for it, you know. And so we knew that the future was going to provide even more opportunity for the solution we were building. So we were patient and said that's fine, we're going to go build better and more and we'll be back, you know. And then the AI revolution happened and we saw a huge shift and I tell this story all the time that within six months of ChatGPT launching, instead of us knocking on doors and saying, what can our AI do for you, people were coming to us and being like what can your AI do for us? And so that was the change, and acceptance has been a huge part of that.
Gary Pageau:Do you think that ChatGPT, was kind of the point of the sphere for all this stuff? Because I agree, it's sort of like it came out of nowhere, but you know, people have been dealing with AI and machine learning and everything and imaging for a long time. What made it so different? You think that it raised the awareness of all this to everybody?
Troy DeBraal:I think it was the first accessible system where every single person could go and interface with it and get something akin to what they expected out. And it was amazing enough in its generative qualities or its efficiency or whatever it was where it made common ground possible with the populace at large, which I think is essential for any movement, any revolutionary technology. You have to connect to that common ground of why is it important to me? And everybody could say pretty easily I see why it's important to me and I think it was a huge pivot. Obviously it's been great for us.
Gary Pageau:I mean, obviously you know a lot of the big players in the photo space, the traditional photo space, your Amazon Photos, your Google Photos, even Shutterfly to some extent, are doing some of this organization and things like this. So is that a concern of yours or is it validating the concept?
Troy DeBraal:To us, it was always not only validating the concept but allowing us to see right where the path to business success was, because, although a subset of the features and data that we produced is certainly possible in Google Photos and Apple and Amazon, they're not selling that to the individual photo companies. They're not going out and giving that technology away as they do to consumers inside those platforms. We saw that as a direct opportunity. If we can make something better than them and sell it to the people and really walk in the door and say, well, we can make you so that you have Google-like capabilities tomorrow, that sounds like a pretty good sales pitch.
Gary Pageau:Right. So let's talk, then, specifically about the MediaViz AI platform, what it is you're offering, because I think that's where we kind of need to get it, because you're not really something that consumers are going to download and manage their images with. You're more of a tool for businesses who are in the business of serving photographers, consumers. And also video I mean there's a lot of you do video as well.
Troy DeBraal:Yeah, absolutely, let's talk about that. So yeah, Mediaviz is an AI platform that we have really envisioned and designed to be a B2B platform where we want to ensure that our data processing, our image curation, our image labeling and annotation makes other products and other services not only better but elevates them to a new level of human insights. So the platform is designed so that any company that deals with large amounts of multimedia, or especially is in the photo space and now just getting into the video space, has a place where they can go and plug into a very simple API and ask complex questions. Out of this large volume of photos, which ones are the most meaningful to my individual or to this collection? What's in this collection? Not just everything, but what's important in this collection? How does this collection reflect the person that collected it or made these photos, plus all the data that goes into answering those complex questions?
Troy DeBraal:you know the individual object detection and colors and aesthetics, and all that because all of those higher level decisions require that data. So MediaVis is a platform where you can plug into a simple API to ask simple questions what's in these photos and what are the colors? So really complex questions like, in this hundred thousand photos, which ones are the most meaningful to the author of these photos?
Gary Pageau:Where does it sit? Is this something? Let's say I've got an archive. Let's say I'm a stock photography company and I need some AI to drive my my commerce piece so people can find the images I want to sell. For example, is it on my servers or is it on your servers? I mean, can it be both? I know you've just launched the API, but was that the original concept?
Troy DeBraal:Yeah, and you know we've moved between a couple of different phases and right now I would say that it's most cost efficient to just plug into our API. So, and you API? I try and tell everybody this we want the images to be one way. We take just a little thumbnail of the image. We never touch the original images and we produce all of our data and insights off of that thumbnail. So we want companies to send us data, us process it, send them back the data and then get rid of their images. So in that case, we want it to be a service, so that you don't have to build all this infrastructure to do that yourself. But it is possible to do as well. You know it's a cloud system. We could certainly put that on. You know any large enough enterprises systems?
Gary Pageau:Right, well, I'd imagine just for security purposes, right? I mean, one of the markets you're talking about addressing is like school and school portraits, right, and there's all kinds of security concerns there with especially going across state lines or maybe even going across country lines if you go into Canada or places like that. So I can certainly see where you know privacy issues may require that.
Troy DeBraal:And they drive the business as well. To be frank, like operating within all the different state laws and now country and international laws, and making sure that not only from a security and privacy perspective, but what's the intent on the other side of what they really feel about privacy? You know, you have to consider that as well, because you know what do you want to offer people? Is it going to suit their particular audience?
Gary Pageau:And it drives everything that we do well and also you've got you know rights usages as well. I imagine that's built in too like what can you do with this image? You know who's allowed to use it, in what context, at what size. I imagine there's a lot of that built right in oh, absolutely, and you know it's.
Troy DeBraal:it really was a recent and great learning moment for me, understanding now in the complex world of media rights and management and how that gets split between images and sometimes four or five entities own different parts of an image.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Troy DeBraal:So your job also becomes bringing people together so that they can get the value of their collective rights.
Gary Pageau:You know, yeah or you might even have a case where the rights may change, right? Let's say, for example, a photographer signs away their rights for a couple years, for, you know, let's say they're taking a picture of an event, and then the rights revert back to them over time, right? So I mean, rights can be fluid. They're not, you know, not always, but they can be very fluid.
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely and having the right to deal with people's photos in the first place. Back to the school photography and that whole question. I mean taking care of those photos and understanding that you want to maintain possession of that data for as little time as possible, you know, because there are huge implications of that market and providing those types of services. So you got to think about it differently in every single market that you enter.
Gary Pageau:Well, you know, it's interesting because, like some states have even made it, you know, forbidden, where they can only hold images for a couple years even, which can be problematic actually for a lot of businesses If you want to do some archival offerings or some, you know, a composite of a child over the course of their lifetime, right, and it's like you can now allow to hold images. So we'll see how that all shakes out, right?
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely, and there's good reasons on both sides of every argument, right, exactly.
Gary Pageau:So I want to talk a little bit about, kind of like the terminology, because you know, AI is one thing and now there's this other term that's being bandied about called agentic AI, which is what you guys do. What is that?
Troy DeBraal:Explain it to me as if I'm five think of agentic AI as an intelligent, automated system that can act and think somewhat on behalf of the person that it serves, and I think that kind of breaks it down where you know you can ask a lot from a lot of different AI systems today and they will produce a result for you.
Troy DeBraal:But are they acting on your behalf or are they doing a service for you? And you know once you cross that lane to they're actually acting on your behalf and sometimes doing things without your knowledge and approval. You know they're going ahead of you, making decisions for you, inferring things that they believe are true. I think you have to have that type of trust to really believe in agentic AI and you know we see a future where all of these agentic systems which will start to take over a lot of the basic work and communication, I think in a lot of different enterprises. Some of that's going to come down to video and image processing, and we feel there's a good place for us as the backbone to that, like we don't want to be the agent, but we want to be the system that serves the agent in those moments.
Gary Pageau:So what would be an example of how an agentic AI system would work? You said it acts on your behalf, so let's say, for example, would it, let's say you type a query in a stock photo space and it would say, I'm looking for, you know, a jockey in a red thing on a black horse or whatever, and it may search, but then would it go create the image using a generative AI model, or what is that?
Troy DeBraal:I suppose it could if that was the purpose of the agent. But in that situation I would think of an agent more like. You had one stock system and you were looking for a particular set of keywords to find just the right image. And you said agents, go through this very large archive and find this right, instead of just initiating a search for you if they didn't come back with the perfect image, because they would review them before you saw them as well, right. This agentic system would probably say none of these are good enough, I need to go to a different stock photography house and look there. So it's not only reviewing the results for you so that it's making a pre-choice, but it may even be making a secondary choice to solve your problem for you.
Gary Pageau:Okay, that's kind of interesting. So it may actually be independent of the source of the images.
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely, and I certainly see agentic AI evolving very quickly to that point where where's the greatest number of resources today to solve people's problems On the internet, right? So you may direct it at the beginning but then ask it to do that further direction if it doesn't succeed all on itself or all by itself.
Gary Pageau:So could it do you see it in doing something? Let's say, let's stick with the stock photography example. Let's say, for example, you put something in and I want to have a jockey and a red top and it doesn't find it, will it, like, go out and find another stock and maybe even negotiate the rights?
Troy DeBraal:If I had, if I was building an agent like that, that's exactly what I would do Enable it with commerce, it with negotiation, and make sure that it could go far and wide to find what I was looking for. And if it didn't say I made you a generative piece, is this what you were looking for? Because maybe I can go look with visual search now instead of text search.
Gary Pageau:Right, that's pretty cool. So I mean now, that's not what MediaViz AI does now, but it's in the beginnings of that, right.
Troy DeBraal:Our dream for the purest form of agentic AI for MediaViz and our AI systems is to really act for you, as you're taking photographs mostly on your phone, I think where that comes into play where our theme that we talk about a lot is let's let people create and let us curate.
Troy DeBraal:So if we had our own agent, we would probably have our AI living on your phone and encourage you to just go and take photos and we would do some of the decision making of do I actually show this to the author or do I just throw it away? Is it too bad even for them to see? And you know, if they're taking lots of photographs, then what are the best 10% of these photographs that I can present and say here's what I think you should keep.
Gary Pageau:What about, like, even going to the level of hey, I know this photographer, how they edit, how they shoot, and I'm going to pre-apply some actions to it?
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely. You know, I think that that's the natural extension and we talk a lot about those different phases of post-photography production right, so you know whether you're getting into editing before you're actually doing some of the curating always seems odd. Right, you want to? You know, take your full set and cull it down to just the images you want to edit. And so we see that process being a natural extension of what we're doing.
Troy DeBraal:And you know, our AI is, I think, unique in the terms of it not only specializes to a person, but we do a one-on-one AI. So if you put your photos in, there's an AI system that springs to life and learns from your collection and really takes in the decisions you've made your composition decisions, your aesthetic decisions, the colors you use a lot, the subject matter that you shoot. So we can learn about you before it makes those decisions. And that, to me, is the next extension of that. Well, if I can learn about the things you do while creating, I can also learn about what you do after to make them perfect.
Gary Pageau:You know, it's kind of interesting that raises kind of interesting of that of like, who is the photographer, right, I mean. But if you think about it, you know, with iPhones now and Android, same thing, but with smartphones now there's so much computational photography going in there to improve images that most people aren't even aware that the pictures they shot probably wasn't as good as it came out, because Apple and Google put all the goodness in there to, you know, optimize it.
Troy DeBraal:We see a huge break around 2018, 2019, where photos just completely shifted. And you know, if we look at our historical collections that we take in, you can kind of see where, because we have a filter for blur and a model for blur, there's a point where it's almost not needed anymore because people aren't taking blurry photos anymore unless it's on purpose.
Gary Pageau:Right, yeah, yeah, or even like flash. I mean flash photography is more or less disappeared now in a lot of ways. I mean, people have them on the phones, but I think people use the light on the phone more for a flashlight than for a flash photography.
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely.
Gary Pageau:It's better at that identified certain verticals for the company to go after sports and entertainment, digital asset management systems, photo labs and printers, school portraits and stock photography. Why did you identify those markets in particular? What was kind of your thought process on that?
Troy DeBraal:We thought that those markets, in different ways and in different flavors, had the best qualities for us in terms of a mass amount of multimedia being produced that humans were either hand coding, annotating, curating, processing, where we could offer them not only efficiencies but better products and services by inserting us, like in the beginning of their workflow.
Gary Pageau:Okay, that's kind of interesting. So you need to be kind of more on the front end, because I think most people think of AI as being sort of as a backend, curation or cataloging type model, but you're thinking it needs to be more on the front end.
Troy DeBraal:And the system is designed to do both. The platform is, but we think that the biggest bang and the biggest value is at the beginning, because, again, we want to encourage photographers in the future go out and create more, because you don't have to look through 10,000 photos versus 4,000. We'll do that for you and the best place to do that is right at the beginning of the process and almost all those workflows, and the best place to do that is right at the beginning of the process and almost all those workflows.
Gary Pageau:So do you see this being built into, like maybe not just smartphones, but also like standalone cameras like your Canons, your Sonys, your Nikons?
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely. I think when you get to the point where you can have the type of compute resources on a much smaller form factor, you will see all that move into any capture device that you can have.
Gary Pageau:I mean, I've been mentioning like, even like security cameras, ring cameras, all things like that, where you know I need to find this specific incident that happened in a short amount of time.
Troy DeBraal:Absolutely. I mean a lot of those things. You know you have to store that video either right near that camera or actually in the camera, so why not do that processing in that place too?
Gary Pageau:That's kind of amazing when you think about it. So what about? You know a lot of my audience are in the printing side of the business. Why do you think something like a?
Troy DeBraal:media viz AI platform will actually help in the printing side of the business.
Troy DeBraal:Sure, you know and two reasons kind of one back to our original thesis that people had too many photos on their phone that they either couldn't or they were not going to manage, like one of the two was true.
Troy DeBraal:So we kind of looked at the market and said, well, we see a bunch of different opportunities for automation and curation and understanding to be created around their photos, but really kind of centering on one, we can help people clean out their photos and when they do, they have to review their collection. Right, Get all their memes out, get all their junk out, do everything to do that makes you look at the content you have and often motivates people to say, hey, I do want to get prints of X, y, z. So, the most basic, just help people understand what they have and see the value in their own collection. But then, secondarily, you know so many carts just get abandoned for photo books and photo products as people get halfway through and just quit. So we thought we could condense those workflows and leapfrog people across those customer journeys and close more of those deals online. That was the most simple premise.
Gary Pageau:Yeah, no, it absolutely makes sense. I mean, I've been looking at the photo book abandonment thing for probably 15 years and it's not going down by any real appreciable amount. People start photo books and never finish them and usually the number one reason is back from a prior life. Doing consumer research on this is consumers say they don't have the right picture. They don't have the picture they want right. So do you think MediaViz could help with that?
Troy DeBraal:Yeah, and we're actually exploring a lot of that right now, of how do we move into the edge so that we can do that for our customers and consumers and customers of our customers, so that they can get a more holistic view of what they have before they enter into these print processes, so they are more likely to finish them.
Gary Pageau:Yeah, because that is probably the number one big issue with photo books in particular is that I want to touch a little bit about the sports and entertainment piece. Right, Because can you describe how it seems to me, like you know, if you go to a sporting event or whatever, truly like they're trying to create all these experiences to monetize the event? Is that where your systems can tie into that?
Troy DeBraal:Yeah, absolutely. You know there's a couple of things that we're actually talking about right now that kind of fit nicely into that category right now, that fit nicely into that category. I think it comes back to what we talk about a lot internally, which is everything in the world is involved in real estate, Even photos. When you are trying to get people to purchase a photo, it's to put in real estate in their house. You want to convince them that your memory or your memorabilia is important enough to be in their real estate With the sports teams and entertainment. It starts with creating those moments that you can then convince somebody is valuable enough to be in their real estate, and that starts with exploiting their own real estate.
Troy DeBraal:So we're kind of fitting into that puzzle of well, again, why don't we help you set up, or in your natural photo areas where you're beckoning people in to have little experiences props, green screens, whatever it be take as many photos as you want. Encourage your fans to take as many photos as they want, and then we will curate those. We will alter those photos if necessary, so that they can get a photo package on their way out the door, offered to them post-game, but a way to not only memorialize their experience there, but to allow them to express themselves. At the same time, we thought that was like the perfect marriage you could express yourself, had a better time and get a record of it.
Gary Pageau:It just amazed me how sports and entertainment venues went from we forbid you from bringing any cameras in here to we want you to use your camera and just use it, use it, use it at these entertainment venues. It's really been a complete 180 on that.
Troy DeBraal:Some of the things that we talk about especially with that industry is everybody wants the great content from their fans and they don't want to deal with all the stuff that gets sent in that nobody wants and there's a big spectrum there. But we think we can help people out at that point too. Like ask your fans for data, we'll go through it, curate it and you only get to see the good stuff.
Gary Pageau:And you even, I'm sure you'll look for things that are maybe not appropriate for every viewing audience and maybe even see again, maybe even find out what the rights are right For the usage for that. Exactly, absolutely you've got a webinar coming up that addresses some of these topics. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Troy DeBraal:yeah, the webinar is june 5th at 1 pm eastern, and in that webinar we're going to be covering a broad range of topics a lot about our api and how easy it is to integrate, but also the different use cases that the ai can be applied to, and what are the outputs of the system in terms of data and analytics that you get when you put data into it.
Gary Pageau:Well, that sounds really cool. Make sure that we let everyone know about that and they make sure they sign up. And if they're interested in MediaVis in general, where would they go for more information?
Troy DeBraal:The best place to check out us and upcoming events is MediaVisai.
Gary Pageau:Awesome, well, great, troy, I know I think you and I have been chatting now for a couple of years now. It's great to have you on the podcast and look forward to hearing more about what's coming up with MediaViz. So best wishes and talk to you soon.
Troy DeBraal:Thanks so much, Gary. Talk soon.
Erin Manning:Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
