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Why More Traffic Doesn’t Mean More Sales: A Digital Marketing Deep Dive with Matt Bailey
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In this episode, Matt Bailey, a digital marketing expert with more than 20 years of experience, takes us through his journey, starting from building websites in the '90s to now focusing on effective marketing education. He shares insights about the evolution of digital marketing and highlights why businesses must focus on their best customers. With a powerful message on the misconception that more traffic equals more sales, he challenges listeners to think differently about their marketing strategies.
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Hosted and produced by Gary Pageau
Edited by Olivia Pageau
Announcer: Erin Manning
Welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, Gary Pageau. The Dead Pixels Society podcast is brought to you by Mediaclip, Advertek Printing, and Independent Photo Imagers.
Gary Pageau:Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Matt Bailey, who's a digital marketer with a company called SiteLogic, and he's from Canton, Ohio, and we've just been giggling for the last 20 minutes just sharing stories about marketing, small business and what the real world is like out there. Hi, Matt, how are you today?
Matt Bailey:Oh, I'm doing great, Gary. Thanks for having me on.
Matt Bailey:I hope we haven't covered too much in the preamble, because there's actually a lot I want to ask you about.
Matt Bailey:Oh,
Matt Bailey:Oh
Matt Bailey:, I'm sure there's a lot more we could get to. a
Gary Pageau:So tell me about Matt Bailey and how he got into digital marketing.
Matt Bailey:Well, I don't want to go too long, I'll just say about mid-90s I was in the real estate business and you know I was a kid, Gary, and I started building 12, 13 years old yeah yeah, 13 years old, I started building websites because we had some commercial properties like Ben Breakfast Inns and things like that.
Matt Bailey:So I started building websites to get more exposure for that, because at that point you either building websites to get more exposure for that because at that point you either had the newspaper, the local LMS, you could take a full page color ad in Southern Living for 40 grand.
Matt Bailey:So I figured, you know, let's try this out.
Matt Bailey:And within months of getting those websites up, we were getting leads, massive amounts of leads from at that time it was Yahoo, altavista, you know, when Google started coming in, and so the vast majority of leads we were getting on these properties were coming from the internet, and so it didn't take too long for me to realize that this internet thing was going to be a whole lot more fun than real estate, especially before 2000. So from there, you know, all I had to do was show up at an agency and say I know SEO and I could get hired almost anywhere, because that's what people were starting to ask for. So that's what launched me into the career. I've been in the agency world for years, then started my own agency and then, because of, I've just got a passion for teaching and teaching others, and so I worked with a lot of organizations in teaching their memberships how to do marketing. Eventually, I sold off the client services, went full on into the training side, and that's what I've been doing for the past 10 years.
Gary Pageau:So in the nineties, where were you getting the resources to learn things? Because there weren't YouTube tutorials, there weren't Matt Bailey's out there.
Gary Pageau:So what was that like Was this a lot of trial and error. How did you learn so back then?
Matt Bailey:hat you may remember this, Gary, there were forums. Forums where CompuServe yeah, CompuServe, but then just text-based forums where people would share information. And I loved it because I mean, here's the difference We've got things like X and all these words very short, but forums, people would write paragraphs of what I've learned, what I saw, and then there would be debate, and that was a great way of learning, but also, I will say, a lot of it was just trial and error what works, what doesn't work. And I remember I picked up a book oh, I can't remember when it was, but it was called-.
Gary Pageau:It was called SEO, then really was it.
Matt Bailey:No, it was well. It was at the beginning stages, but I picked up a book that called Websites that Don't Suck. I think I had that, yeah, and it was great because that's what taught me about user experience and the interface and learning that it's not only just getting people to the site, it's making it easier for them to use. And so that's what formed a lot of my decision-making and growth, because when I had my agency, where we created value for people, yes, we could increase the amount of traffic coming to their site when we really hit it out of the park was improving the site so that the people who were coming could more easily find what they needed, and so looking and finding where those roadblocks were and taking them out. You know there's a couple of sites. You know we doubled their sales overnight because we found where the roadblocks were and fixed them.
Gary Pageau:What was the biggest misconception that you had going in in the 90s? You learned, or that surprised you, I guess.
Matt Bailey:Misconception? I don't know. I feel like everything was a conception at that point.
Gary Pageau:It was just Well the reason why I said I remember that it was kind of the Wild West back then, right yeah?
Matt Bailey:Well, my wife would always say you know, know, it is ignorance and enthusiasm, right, this is why you love it is is there's no rules there, there's just, oh, that didn't work. Let's try this. And I think that excitement is really what carried it and made it what it was. Is you never know what you were going to see that day? You never, you know. You just sit down and go to it. And but I will say one of the things, another forming instance is when I sat down and tried to figure out I've got two hours to work tonight on this. Where am I going to spend that time? Do I spend it, you know, adding more properties? Do I spend it doing follow-up? Do I spend it doing these types of things? And that question drove me to learn analytics and measurement and learning what's really driving business. And I learned from that point on more leads and more visits don't necessarily mean more business. Right, and that was probably the biggest. I won't say it's a misconception, it was more. You know, it's an assumption.
Matt Bailey:Right and because I would have clients constantly saying I want to you know, I want more visits and I would have to ask them do you want more visits or do you want more business?
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:They're not the same. So learning that is really what then propelled our business my ability to communicate to businesses. Here's how to set goals. Here's how to build strategy. Here's how to measure success.
Gary Pageau:Now I'm just curious, because you've worked with businesses of different sizes and I'm thinking back in those early days. You probably ran into a bit of conflict in the organization because you have your marketing contact right, the person who's hired you to do this, and they're like we want visits, we want to see those numbers, yes, we don't care how we get it. And then but it's like but we're not making sales. Well, sales is somebody else, that's somebody else's concern. Right, my concern is how did you manage that sort of thing? Because I remember back then that was a lot of the conflict back then copywriters, but also with graphic artists.
Matt Bailey:Because, they wanted to build the site like this, and I'm coming in saying, oh no, we need much more contrast. That can't be a graphic, it needs to be HTML. So I think, personally, I had more conflict with graphic artists because I came from a sales background and so I could speak the sales language and show them. And here's where probably the biggest thing was is I had to persuade them. The more content you put on the site, the easier the sale will be.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:Because everyone their idea was well, we need to keep information back. We just need to get them to call us, and I was trying to convince them that they will call if they don't have confidence or if you don't spur that question. And so that was the main conflict is how much information do we give to get a call, to get an email? That was a lot of fun but, again, coming from a sales background, that enabled me to work with them a little bit more and sell the idea and finally, you know, and then when they saw it happening, that that was just that was a great time.
Gary Pageau:So moving forward, right. So you get into your own agency doing your own thing what changed. The reason why I say is because you know I've run into people. Now those are, they're still asking those same questions, right?
Erin Manning:I don't?
Gary Pageau:I think you've hit on a universal problem, that even though the foundational technology has changed, and maybe some of the attitudes regarding change. I mean, you were talking about enthusiasm. I think a lot of marketing today is more desperation and cynicism than it is. Enthusiasm than it is. You know, enthusiasm, right, yeah, but overall, I mean, is there anything new really happening in or in the objectives? I guess in the way, yeah, yeah.
Matt Bailey:You know it hasn't changed much. I will say that the window dressing changes every week, right, but it's still the same window. It's still put information out there that people are looking for, right? That is the basic thing that has not changed. And put it out there in a way that people can find it, that they can use it and that also connects with them at some level, whether it's giving them confidence that you can do it, building curiosity that maybe these guys can help me. It's that same basic idea has always been the same. It's just a matter of how you're going to execute it, how you're going to build or develop it. But I will say, right now, the problem is there's so many shiny objects and we get a new one.
Matt Bailey:you know, and we were talking a little bit earlier and I I realized this was next to me and this is the, the course I'm teaching at my university. Look at how thick that book is of principles of marketing. Here's the thing this was published only like two years ago and they're talking about how the metaverse is the next biggest thing. You know, and I'm laughing, I'm like I'm going to make this the centerpiece of my course, because there's so many shiny objects if you don't know what works, why it works right and and how to affect that then you're going to get caught up in the shiny objects.
Gary Pageau:Yeah, you know it's funny. We were talking again earlier about the course I teach in the prison system, which some listeners know about. I teach a course on entrepreneurship and I run in the same thing with my book, because I think it was published in 2016 or something.
Erin Manning:And it talks about like.
Gary Pageau:This is a search engine and this is how it works. But again, the principles are the same. That's why it's still a valid thing, but it is so. When you talk about finding out what people are looking for, the challenge a lot of my listeners run into is they make stuff and they want to sell the things that they make, but sometimes that's not the stuff that customers are looking for. So how should they deal with that? Right, you know? Let's say, for example, they just bought a new press and they really want to feed that press, but the customer may not even be aware of what it can do or see the advantage of it.
Matt Bailey:Yeah, well, and that, so that gets to your marketing strategy and how you're positioning yourself. So you know, for example, Starbucks, red Bull Coke, they sell caffeine drinks, that's it. However, what do they market themselves at? You know, what do they say they do? And there's a big, big difference. There's that functional thing of what we do, and then there is the what I would say is more of the marketing view of what we do. Are you selling pictures or memories? Right, one has an emotional draw to it, the other one does not.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:It's more functional and so it's coming up with that bridge of functionally. This is what I do, but this is how I change people's lives.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:This is how I make an impact, and it's that statement and that idea that all of a sudden broadens out your audience and what they're looking for. I'm not just looking for a picture, I'm looking for a way to, you know, immortalize a moment and memories. It's emotion and and that's what you're it's thinking about the satisfaction that you're bringing someone once they have it, once they've done it, and when you think about that end result, that's what you're selling and so that's that connection, because so many times people get locked into that functional mode or and it's just how far does this go?
Gary Pageau:Yeah, and that's part of the challenge in the marketing in the photo industry, right? Well, we're recording this full disclosure during the fourth quarter of 2024. So there's a lot of discounting and you know, buy one, get ones, and you know 20% off, 30% off deals are going on because there's a lot of that urgency and that's not that message. And the problem you run into, I think, especially in my industry, is, you know, once you've gone down that path, it's hard to switch to a value message.
Matt Bailey:Yeah.
Matt Bailey:So I did a lot of work with the direct marketing industry around you know the 2000s into the 2010s and it was always fun to talk to people who were catalog retailers that had these type of businesses, and I remember talking to one person specifically who said I will never offer a discount unless it's to an existing customer Because they've shown their loyalty They've shown Now here's why that's changed is Amazon.
Matt Bailey:Amazon has made everyone believe that shipping is free and it's immediate, and one of the great pieces of advice I got is if you see something you like on Amazon, go to the retailer, go to the person that sells it, and chances are they'll offer you 10%, which takes care of the shipping. You know it's now, we've been conditioned for that and but you can also feed that beast. You offer a discount and I'm guilty of this. If you offer me a discount, I'm going to wait for the next discount. I've got something sitting in a shopping cart right now, because I'm waiting for the abandoned cart discount. I'm going to wait for the next discount. I've got something sitting in a shopping cart right now, right, because I'm waiting for the abandoned cart discount.
Erin Manning:Right.
Matt Bailey:I'm waiting for a sale, so it's. You are training people with discounts when you keep offering them, so it's. But and that's the thing, do you offer it to get a new customer? Do you offer it as a reward for customers? And so that's a lot. When we can get into the business side of things is do you reward customers and at what level do you reward customers? And how do you work with customers then, not just order from us when you feel like it? How are you communicating to the people that spent $1,000 with you this past year? How are you communicating to people that spent $5,000 with you the past year? When we talk about marketing, I think like 80%, 90% of what people think about is top of funnel. It's getting new customers, and we tend to forget to take care of those that are already on our mailing list past buyers, buyers in the past year, those type of things.
Gary Pageau:And you've reached an interesting point, because I think you know discount is easy right, it's just easy to do. But the reality is is, at least in the photographic industry, whether you're in the hardware side or the output side or the capture side you're trying to build a relationship for ongoing business, right, because you are dealing with people's personal uh image or their personal memories, or they're trying to decorate their home and have it be their taste and all those things. That's really an advantage that the industry has over. Let's say, you know, I'm just selling a uh, you know, towels or something like that. Yes, so do you have any guidelines on, like, how often a business like that should be communicating with customers, because you kind of want to, don't want to give them too much information all the time, just because it's annoying yeah, yeah, this time of the year versus you know just, you want to remind people that you exist right, and you can't always rely on social media for that, because that's kind of outside of your ability to control the algorithm.
Matt Bailey:It is, and with social media you're only going to reach 2% maybe of the people that follow you. And I think also we could go into an assumption that people follow brands. They don't normally do that. However, they do get emails and you know, especially this time of year, email is powerful. Email drives more sales than social it always has, because it's that one-on-one. And now I will say, measuring email is getting harder. We don't know how many people opened. I mean, it was always a fuzzy metric to begin with.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:However, we can look at clicks. Clicks are something that are hard I can go by that and so looking at who opens your email, who clicks on your email, seeing if I've sent four emails in the past three months, who's clicked on them.
Erin Manning:Right.
Matt Bailey:Those are the people who are actively looking and reading and seeing what's there. I can segment those and communicate to them differently than to people who maybe have only clicked on an email once in the past year. Right, and so a lot of it is just. You know, we do the same thing in face-to-face. We communicate with people differently based on our level of relationship. We need to do the same thing in our marketing, our emails and things like that.
Gary Pageau:When you're talking with people who are you know, similar businesses right Like, consumer goods businesses like and you talk about chasing the shiny, which is it was a phrase I liked. I like to use a lot too, because I do see a lot of people guilty about. What are some of the things people should look at before they decide to try something shiny and new, right Cause, like I said, I've had photo retailers going. You know, I've already got the Facebook, I've already got the Instagram, I've already got the LinkedIn for my corporate accounts. Do I need TikTok? Right? No one needs TikTok.
Matt Bailey:Yeah, yeah. My first question is where's the money coming from? Right, right, where? Where are you going to pull this budget? Because are you going to add to the budget for that or are you going to pull?
Matt Bailey:You know one story I tell people constantly. I worked with a consumer goods retailer and they got sold on social commerce. This was a couple years ago. Uh, through instagram, a company sold them and and we were working on their website as well as their marketing and, and I cautioned about doing and this was like probably late summer, early fall again christmas is their biggest sales time and they pulled money out of their paid search budget. They pulled money out of their email budget, and I'm trying to tell them you shouldn't do this. Then they came back. They lost everything. Everything that they put into the social commerce did not produce anything, and not only that, it damaged their business and it took them years to recover. And they asked me why? Well, I told them, like every dollar you put into paid search, you were making at least $5 in return. So not only did you miss that $5 return on ad spend, every dollar you took out of that ad spend hurt you even more. I said your two best channels were paid search and email, and you pulled budget out of both in order to try something new. That's why I tell people know what works and why, and because if you don't know, you could be pulling budget from an area that is working great. But if you don't know, and again, just throwing money at a channel does not necessarily mean it's going to work.
Matt Bailey:This gets to like, you know, just our typical talk. Gary, how are you going to use it? Did you think about that? Because if you use TikTok, well, who's going to shoot the video? Who's going to edit it? What's going to be your schedule? How are you going to talk about it? And one of the things I don't think people realize is every single one of these social channels is it's a game, right? If you're going to be successful at a channel, you have to have a game, and by that I mean you can't look at other people's numbers and compare because you don't know how they got those. Especially in social, there's a lot of social.
Gary Pageau:Yeah.
Matt Bailey:You know, and when you start digging in and reading how to create audience, how to create things like that, very little of it is organic. Right, there is a lot of pay. You know, back in the day we used to call it the payola. Yeah, you know, if you're paying DJs to play your music.
Gary Pageau:Yeah, exactly.
Matt Bailey:Essentially, that's what's going on in social media Right, You're paying companies to boost. You're paying companies to boost. You're paying companies to follow. So many of these metrics are inflated or overdone. We see things go viral and we assume it's organic. It is 99.999% of the time it's not organic. It was done by an agency and they had the means to make it happen.
Gary Pageau:But let's not be on the negative side and say you shouldn't try new things. I'm just saying I mean there are things that you want to try, but the reality is is don't kill the golden goose to do it. Use, maybe try it, but don't use. Don't pull out of your budget. Add to your budget, do something different.
Matt Bailey:You know, that's why I guess and have a way to measure it.
Matt Bailey:Absolutely, and that's the thing I tell people. You can try a new channel, but ultimately, here, my, my first bit of advice is find one channel and do great. Don't do three channels midway Right. Do one thing, great, and when you've mastered it, now figure out which channel should we look at from here. What's next? You know, and you might be surprised when you start looking to see where these communities are, of people that not only would like your product but are going to tell others about it. That'll take pictures of their what they got and send it and show it to other people. It that'll take pictures of what they got and send it and show it to other people. It's not just a matter of which platform's the biggest. It's where the people are that will be the most appreciative and the most engaging, and that's part of it. The new is not always the best. It's finding where those communities are.
Gary Pageau:If you're a local business, you know and you've got, you know, a three to five mile trading area right, like most people, for your brick and mortar. How do you find where the people are right? I'm talking to your regular, everyday business owner, who's not a marketing expert, who you know is just dealing with the day to day. How does that person find the people?
Matt Bailey:The best thing that you can do is build that Google my Business profile. That is number one for a locally based business. You are going to get more mileage out of that than you will building a website and putting all kinds of things trying to get a bigger audience. Your Google business profile is going to be, first, what Google shows people. Connect it to your website. There's a number of things you can do and engage with it. Update it. Google my Business is one of those things. The more effort you put into it, the more you're going to see.
Matt Bailey:I work with a couple of local businesses. I've developed their business profile and, by the way, anyone that wants to charge you to do it, come on, you can do this. You can do it in a weekend. Don't pay someone else to do this, but then also log into it once a week, double check your hours, double check the things that you've got there and if you can upload pictures. That is what's going to move things.
Matt Bailey:And as people start leaving reviews about your business and, by the way, you can grab a link and you can send it to customers with an invitation for them to leave a review about your business. So the more active you are in the profile, the more pictures you load and the more ratings you get. The more exposure you load and the more ratings you get, the more exposure your local listing will get in Google compared to your website. And then over time the words that people search for will become broader and your local listing will come up more frequently. At first it'll come up for your business name, but as you grow that reputation it's going to broaden out into more terms that Google's going to associate and if you're active, you are building that profile, you're going to get that visibility.
Gary Pageau:So I mean, and like you said, it's something you can do in your spare time, because one of your resources is a book called Marketing in One Hour, right? So you think most people can do this without investing a crazy amount of time, because that's what I always hear from a lot of my audiences. You know, I'd love to do this stuff, but I just don't have time.
Erin Manning:Yeah.
Gary Pageau:But you're saying you do have time, but you got to have the discipline to do it.
Matt Bailey:Yeah, the business profile is the easiest thing to do. You know I work with a lot of you know small businesses and I tell them the easiest thing you can do is take a picture of what you do, take a picture of the before and after. Put that in. You know, I know people don't have time to sit around and write 2000 word pages for a blog and that's the thing People, when they hear content, that's what they think of. But no, you know, take a short video. You know I work with a plumber. I tell them, like, just take a short video of some of the worst things that you see in a day and explain why it's so bad. Put that on your business profile, put it on your website.
Gary Pageau:That's the type of thing people want to see okay, I'm surprised you would say that for your business profile, because usually when I think of the business profile I think of like the store, the back room, the trucks, the retail area. So you're even talking about like things out in the field, like gary, do you remember the?
Matt Bailey:the show dirty jobs? Absolutely, that's what I'm talking about, right?
Gary Pageau:people are fascinated to see but that's okay for a google profile.
Matt Bailey:That's what I'm saying yeah, well, think about and here's the thing, think about the problems people run into. Right, you know, with a plumber, we don't call plumbers three months before we need them. That's right, you know. Same, you know withian. It might be a little different, but it's it's. Think about the things a homeowner might run into where, all of a sudden, they realize I'm in over my head. Maybe they go online and they're looking and if they see on your profile oh, this guy's seen this before he's explaining why it's so bad or or why I need what I need to do Maybe they'll learn, maybe they'll call you know it's. It's that behind the scenes. That that's why, you know, I use the dirty jobs example. People are fascinated with what people do, sure, and they'll sit and watch.
Gary Pageau:Absolutely. Oh, I agree, I just have not heard of someone using the Google profile. I mean, hear people do youtube for that you know. But yeah, but youtube's a different.
Matt Bailey:Do both okay doing both okay, it doesn't hurt you to do both google owns youtube, so they love that too yeah, exactly, yeah when it comes to marketing, we're you know we're doing.
Gary Pageau:So let's recap a little bit avoid the shiny, have discipline. You can do this. Don't kill the golden goose. What is something else that you would share with somebody about that you tell the big companies you work with. I mean, what I find surprising, I'm sure, is big companies have these same problems as little companies. It's almost. It's just on a different scale.
Matt Bailey:Oh, it's on a completely different scale. Things go slower. There are things you cannot change because you're not in charge of that. Somebody else is. It's absolutely frustrating to work with a larger company who won't move or move quickly.
Matt Bailey:There is an advantage to being the one who calls the shots. You can move very quickly. Large companies I find you know my own experience. I spend more time presenting why we need to take action than actually taking action. You need to get more people signed off, you need to justify it and I will say from you know it can be fun but it can be frustrating as well.
Matt Bailey:And so, yeah, I've got friends and clients, you know, in all different areas and it's just they all have their nuance to it. The people that I train in agencies, I train them differently than the people that are in large companies with you know, a 20 person marketing department or a hundred person marketing department or a 100 person marketing department, the expectations are different, the objectives are different, measurements are different, and when you've got politics thrown in, that's just icing on the cake so one of the things that I hear from people is I need new customers, I need new people, I need new people, but from what I was understanding're saying, before you're saying, double down on the your existing people, your current customers, can you tell me how that results in new customers?
Gary Pageau:Cause I I think I know what you're going to say, but it does actually bring you new customers by by focusing on your current customer base.
Matt Bailey:Yeah, well, it starts with asking who's my best customer.
Gary Pageau:Right.
Matt Bailey:And now, what I love about that question is it can be interpreted in a couple of different ways. Is it financially, who's my best customer, right? Is it socially, who's my? You know, I've got a lot of businesses I work with and, yeah, these people spend a lot of money, but these people, they are actively posting, recommending, you know, and or I love working with these people, right, you know they may not spend a lot, but I love working with them. So how do you interpret that? What's you know? I ask any businesses, what's your goal? Is your goal to find more people that you have fun working with, or is your goal to find more people who spend more? How are you going to define that question? Because that's going to determine.
Matt Bailey:Now let's go look at the data. Let's go see who these people are that you define as your best customers. Now let's develop a campaign that rewards, that promotes, that helps them tell others about you. That's ultimately what we're going to do, and that's where the swag comes in. I'm wearing swag here this morning. I don't know if you can see. It's an analytics company. They saw that I was talking about them. They sent me a sweatshirt, so I talk about them even more. That's how it works. You know, and we're working with a company right now and you know we look to see how many people were talking about their product online and we were surprised that not only did they talk about the product, they talk about how much they love it. And so, you know, our biggest piece of advice is you need to put together a box of swag and get that out to them, get it out to their teams, get it out to them. Reward them for what they're doing for you.
Matt Bailey:There was one client that was our best promotion. That was our best campaign was rewarding the people that were actively talking about it produced more than any of the social media stuff we did, because it was them doing it. Again, what kind of customer do you want? Find them and reward them and come up with a way to engage them even more. Back in the day, gary, you probably did this as well. We had user groups, right. You know where you get that direct one-on-one feedback. It's also where we got ideas for new products. Sure, I think in this electronic age, we do a lot more assuming and less communicating.
Gary Pageau:Speaking of communication, how can people get more information about Matt Bailey's SiteL ogic, and the things that you offer in terms of training and resources?
Matt Bailey:Thank you, Gary. I appreciate the opportunity for an ad. They can go to SiteLogic and that is S-I-T-E, sitelogicmarketingcom or even just sitelogiccom. I've got courses on digital marketing In fact, we talked about the local marketing and I've got a course on Google, my Business. It is free and that's my hook. You can also take courses on SEO, on content marketing, how to find customers, how to build customer insights, and all of my courses my paid courses are coached courses. They are active learning. So you're going to get assignments, and this assignment can be about your own business, Right, and so you will build strategy for your own business. You will build campaigns and I'm going to be with you every step of the way, looking at your assignments, giving you feedback and building your own skills for your business.
Gary Pageau:Awesome, well, great man. It's been great getting to know you and learning more about your business and your offerings and the education you offer, because it sounds cool and I'm going to check it out. So thank you so much.
Matt Bailey:Thank you, Gary. It's been a lot of fun being here. I appreciate it and, yeah, it's been a great conversation.
Erin Manning:Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.
