Unlocking Online Engagement with Philippa Gamse

Journey with us as Philippa Gamse from Websites that Win shares her captivating story of navigating the digital revolution. From the early days of CompuServe to the modern marvels of remote work technology, Gamse provides a window into the transformative power of online communication. Her experiences in ushering organizations from the era of fax machines to the convenience of email underscore the rapid technological advancements that have reshaped how businesses operate today. With a keen focus on the photo industry, she unravels the critical role that optimized websites now play in connecting and engaging with audiences.

Prepare to unlock the secrets of website traffic and marketing effectiveness with Gamse's expert insights on visitor intent and analytics. Discover the nuances of attracting the right audience, as she compares the quality of leads from social media versus search engines and stresses measuring the true impact of your marketing budget. Delve into the complexities of search engine optimization, particularly for businesses with intricate products, and learn how video content can revolutionize user engagement. With real-world examples and strategic advice, Gamse equips you with the tools to enhance your website's performance, offering a valuable blueprint for those looking to captivate and convert their online visitors.

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Chapters

• 0:02 Website Optimization and Analytics Insights
• 11:05 Analyzing Website Traffic and Marketing Effectiveness
• 21:45 Analyzing Search Engine Optimization and Analytics

Transcript

Erin Manning: 0:02

Welcome to the Dead Pixel Society podcast, the photo imaging industry's leading news source. Here's your host, gary Pegeau. The Dead Pixel Society podcast is brought to you by MediaClip, advertech Printing and Independent Photo Imagers.

Gary Pageau: 0:18

Hello again and welcome to the Dead Pixels Society podcast. I'm your host, Gary Pageau, and today we're joined by Philippa Gamse, who is with Websites that Win, and she's got decades of experience in marketing and consulting and will advise us on how we can get the most out of our website. Hey, Philippa, how are you today?

Philipga Gamse: 0:37

Hey Gary, good morning or good afternoon.

Gary Pageau: 0:40

Tell us how you got started in this career because, as we were talking about in the preamble, you do have an accent, but you're actually coming to us from Santa Cruz, so it sounds like you have a long and varied history in the business world.

Philipga Gamse: 0:53

Yeah, I actually, as I came over to the States, I've been actually I going to date myself here but working in the Internet since basically it started being a major business tool, which was a coincidence pretty much with when I arrived in the US and I just thought it was fascinating. I had a background in communications, data and so on, but I just thought that the possibilities of what it could do even back then were absolutely amazing and wanted to get involved in it.

Gary Pageau: 1:24

So what was the first thing you did in the early internet? Was it cause I remember things like FTP and?

Philipga Gamse: 1:29

crazy things like that, absolutely, yeah, so in fact, I mean, when I first came here, I was working for a major national nonprofit based in Chicago. So you know this was early days and in the early days there were so you probably remember this too there were things like CompuServe and AOL and they had you know this was early days and in the early days they were, so you probably remember this too there were things like CompuServe and AOL and they had, you know, like bulletin boards, which were early forms of discussion groups, right, and what this nonprofit wanted to do. So it was a national nonprofit that had a chapter based in every state and they wanted all their chapters to communicate using this new technology and email and bulletin board or whatever kind of group chat there was back then and I was actually brought on. They created a position for me, specifically for me, because it was nothing like they'd ever had before to evangelize to the chapter people to work this way, because it was really new to everybody and it was fascinating, actually, because there were the early adopters who loved it and there were the over my dead body people and amazingly, there were over my dead body people and you know they wanted to continue sending faxes around the place and of course every time you send a fax you pretty much have to do it, you know, on an individual, one by one basis, right?

Philipga Gamse: 2:43

Because you've got to call the phone number and fax it. And of course, if you don't get everybody doing it, so you're like, okay, we've got 45 people we can chat to in our group and then we've got to send out five faxes, it doesn't work. So it was quite an interesting challenge. I mean, it was much less about the technology and much more about people handling, you know.

Gary Pageau: 3:08

Oh sure, yeah, no, I remember back again. I'm dating myself back in the days in the photo industry there was the photo forum on CompuServe and that was a big deal, right, cause that's where all the news and everything and we were heavily involved in it back then. And boy, you really brought back memories with faxing, cause we used to do a in the organization. I used to work with the photo marketing association. We had a print newsletter and we got into fax broadcast and that was just, like you know, a sea change. Then of course went to email and web and all that stuff. So I'm very familiar with the pain points of getting audiences to move to new places when it makes more sense and if you look at how far we've come, I mean I was just, you know.

Philipga Gamse: 3:45

Now I have clients in Australia, new Zealand, singapore, because it doesn't really matter anymore where you are. You can do anything you know online. You can talk to anybody anywhere in the world who's got a broad connection, you know, and it's a whole different. I mean with COVID. If you think about it, the way that we handled COVID and we all went online and met online and socially, for personal reasons, for professional reasons, et cetera Even if COVID had happened even five years earlier, we wouldn't have had that technology Right To the same extent. It's amazing really.

Gary Pageau: 4:19

Well, we would have been trying to do it on Skype and that would have been terrible.

Gary Pageau: 4:22

Right, it's just terrible to do it on Skype and that would have been terrible. But yeah, no, it is interesting because I have thought about that too, because there was sort of the perfect storm of technology coming together at a time where it was most needed, you know, for remote work and those kinds of things. Because, you know, people had laptops, whereas you know, like you said, five years before there were probably more desktops than laptops, right, and you had tablets, and you know, like you said, five years before there were probably more desktops than laptops, right, and tablets and you know, most, a lot of people didn't have fast enough internet connections at home to do video conferencing and things. So you're exactly right, and it is interesting how you know markets and people have adapted to kind of the pause that COVID gave them. I mean, think about some of the businesses that you frequent that are now doing home delivery or food delivery or some of these things which were always kind of there, but because they had an impetus to, hey, we need to get this done and make it work. Now it's mainstream, people are still doing it.

Gary Pageau: 5:20

So tell us about websites, because websites are kind of your thing, right? So in our industry, the photo industry, there's a lot of websites. There's basically two ways people interact. Well, three ways to become brick and mortar. Where people interact, there's apps, and then there's websites, and then there's websites that behave like apps. So, you know, there's sort of and we're really one of the weirdest industries in the sense that people create on our platforms, right, they upload pictures and create and, you know, manufacture products, essentially, right, you put up a picture and then you make something out of it, right? So there's a lot of user interaction. It's not like a one-click purchase environment, except for, like cameras and things like that. So what are some ways people can really start to assess the effectiveness of their website?

Philipga Gamse: 6:14

Right. So, yeah, my thing is using analytics website analytics to figure that out, to figure out what do I need to do better or what can I do differently. That will improve things. They're probably saying, oh no, maybe I should tune out now because this is going to be incredibly boring, because it can be overwhelming and you see a load of data and charts and graphs and you don't know where to start. And the point is to really understand your own business and what you're trying to do with it in terms of your website.

Philipga Gamse: 6:44

So the really key question is what do you want people to do when they come to your site? So, do you want them to upload pictures? Do you want them to call you? Do you want them to sign up for your newsletter? Is there something that you're actually selling on your website? Do you have a free consultation or a paid consultation that you want people? So that's the way to get into it. It's not just looking at the numbers thinking, oh, I wonder what this means. It's it's what do I think should be happening and is it happening enough? Well, you know which is kind of how long is a piece of string? But you know, this is the point of the analytics. If you don't have questions that are related to your business and your specific goals, it's really hard. Like I said, I mean I think Google Analytics right now has at least 140 odd default reports. I mean there's no way that you can just get into them.

Gary Pageau: 7:36

You know, with the websites that most people in our industry have, you know they are doing shopping carts and transactions and things like that doing shopping carts and transactions and things like that but you know, I think a lot of them are still, you know, maybe missing some connections in terms of how to get people to actually go through the process right, whether it's a ui hiccup or a connectivity issue or something, because that's where we see a lot of challenges is people start making something and then they abandon it. Is there any uh suggestions you have in that sort of that kind of scenario?

Philipga Gamse: 8:08

Yeah, so one of the things that you can do and I mean shopping carts are interesting, because you still see very high levels of people putting things into shopping carts and then not completing the transaction. But even if it's not a shopping cart, one of the things that you can typically do with analytics is to look at the places where people drop off, so people start some sort of process and then you can see, well, where do they stop? And then the key thing, which is why I love this, is because they're not going to tell you why. You don't know why, right, but that's obviously the key question. So sometimes it can be obvious like something isn't working, okay. Or sometimes it's a question like have you got some sort of a form? That is way too long, right?

Philipga Gamse: 8:55

Yesterday I was talking with a client who new client and he's got this contact form, which is for an initial contact. It's in a very specific niche business and so there's a very specific reason why somebody would want to contact him. But he's asking them to upload photos and you know examples or documentation or whatever I'm going hold on. You know that's quite a complicated thing to do. If this is our initial contact, maybe that's not something you want me to do immediately. You can say you can have a note field that says you know what's your specific issue, right?

Philipga Gamse: 9:27

Or they can just write something and with analytics there's ways we can test that, because we can tell when somebody starts to fill in a form, for example. So if we've got a lead form, we can tell if somebody starts to fill it in, and then obviously, we can then correlate that with the number of actual forms that get submitted. And if it's not a good number, then potentially, as I said, one of the things that I start to look for is is the form just too long or does it ask things that are too complicated, like upload something as an initial?

Philipga Gamse: 10:00

you know, once you've got the relationship going and it's obvious that you need like you just asked me, to send you my headshot- right, I'll send you my headshot because I've got a good reason to send it to you now, right, yeah, if the first thing we'd ever like, the very first thing you'd say to me, is send me your headshot, I I might have gone right?

Gary Pageau: 10:18

no, it's funny. It is interesting because you do see that in a lot of places where it's like you know, create an account and they do say, hey, put in your headshot, which I don't understand why. But I have seen that, unless they're expecting you to have an ongoing relationship with them to, you know, add content, add reviews or add something like that. I can see that, yeah, but if it's just I'm making some prints, do I really need that sort of environment?

Philipga Gamse: 10:47

Right, but you know, the nice thing is the proof of the pudding. I mean, basically, you have to come up with a theory and then you obviously test it. So the next thing that will happen is he's going to shorten the form and ask basic things that he needs for the initial lead, and we'll see if we get a better response. Right Now, obviously, it's a bit more complicated than that, because one of the other things you want to know is are the people that I'm attracting to my website the right people for what I'm trying to sell, or you know what I'm doing here? Because if you've got thousands of visitors who are really not the right target audience, doesn't make any difference, they're not going to interact with you, okay. And so one of the other things that we can do, where you start seeing people drop off or people aren't completing things in the way you'd want, you can start saying well, are there some patterns in who those people are or how they came here?

Gary Pageau: 11:36

Right.

Philipga Gamse: 11:37

An example of that is social media advertising. I have to say that, even though lots and lots of people jump into social media advertising, it tends to be a bit cheaper than, say, google pay-per-click ads, right, right yeah, yeah.

Philipga Gamse: 11:51

But typically on social media, people aren't searching for products and services and things to help them solve their problems. They're mostly there to chat with friends, get entertained, et cetera. Right, and they might see an ad that sort of catches their eye, looks interesting. Oh, I'll just click that quickly. Take one look. No, this is really not what I want to do right now.

Erin Manning: 12:11

And they're gone.

Philipga Gamse: 12:14

So one of the other things we can do with analytics that can be very helpful is to chunk visitors down into how they got to your site. If they did a search. I know you had a, an seo guest. You said quite, quite recently um, so if people come to you from an, a google search or a search engine, they where they put in a search that brings them to your website, then obviously it's a much better lead or a potential visitor, because they're proactively looking for what you're doing right, what you're offering right, whereas a social media ad person is somebody who's just sort of off clicking on something they're clicking around.

Gary Pageau: 12:52

There may not be an intent there.

Philipga Gamse: 12:54

And that's not always the case. Obviously, some people find social media very, very helpful, and I'm not trying to knock social media, but what I am saying is that it's absolutely worth doing that kind of review to see what kind, when you're, the way that you get traffic to your site and all the different ways that you're doing that I mean your email list should be generating you some very high quality visitors. Right, because they've already said they're interested in hearing from you again. Right, but just noticing where, and because this is also affecting your marketing budgets, right. So where is what you're spending on marketing the most effective and where is it really not? Even if it's cheap, if it's just bringing you a load of people who click away immediately, is it really worth doing?

Gary Pageau: 13:35

So what are some of the numbers that you suggest people take an initial look at? Because, like you said, there's dozens of them, right? I mean, I don't know if bounce rate is the number or if you can ascertain who you know, if they're bots, which is, you know, a big problem now. So what are some of the things that you suggest, just as initial look through, if you're not, even, you know, a web expert?

Philipga Gamse: 13:59

Yeah, it's a question I often get asked and I actually honestly push back on it. Yeah, it's a question I often get asked and I actually honestly push back on it. Well, because there are so many numbers, like I said I and I, I said I really think you need to be thinking about your own business and what you need to know right now, because because another thing is don't, don't look at numbers for the sake of it, right? You really only should be looking at a number if you intend to do something about it, if you can figure something to do about it. So it's much more valuable to you to figure out, to think about what are the key questions right now. I mean, for example, if you, if you're suspecting that people are adding a lot of stuff to shopping carts and then never going through with it, maybe that's where you want to start.

Gary Pageau: 14:38

Right.

Philipga Gamse: 14:39

Right, if you're spending a lot of money on ads and you feel like you're not getting the traction, maybe that's where you want to start, because you want to see, you really want to know which, which kind of advertising is, or SEO, or whatever is effective, as I said, or not. So, instead of just looking at numbers, for the sake of it, you really. To me, it makes much more sense if you're asking questions about what you know you're already doing. For example, this client that I just took. He's's a brand new client, right, so we have some work to do and he knows that. But, for example, he's selling a very specific product on his site. As I said, it's a very niche. I can't I don't really necessarily want to tell you exactly the detail, but no, that's fine, perfect.

Philipga Gamse: 15:17

But the product that he's selling is something that would pertain to almost all of us who've ever driven a car. It has to do with getting a ticket, and yet the technical name for it is known to him because he's in that line of work, and that's the navigation link on his website to the page that describes this service. But you and me assuming you're not an ex-traffic cop probably have no idea what it means. I didn't, and I I sort of asked a load of friends after I talked to him and I said you know, because the fact of the matter is that that page we can tell from the analytics gets, has got since we put analytics on his site about a month ago zero visitors, zero clicks, because nobody. If you look at those, the words that he's using to describe it, it means nothing to me. I have absolutely no idea why I should click on it or what it would do for me.

Gary Pageau: 16:11

Right because it's a technical sort of inside industry term as opposed to a general knowledge term.

Philipga Gamse: 16:17

And we all have jargon in our industry. I'm sure in the photography industry there's a load of jargon.

Gary Pageau: 16:22

Well, you know it's interesting you said, because, you know, right, when we're recording, this is the fourth quarter of the holiday season. It's going to probably, you know, we'll probably post this after the first year, but you know, and they always have a photo gift right, this is the gifting season of the way you can now put photos and personal content on all kinds of things, including wall decor and drinkware and, you know, plates and everything else. It's not just for gifts, but it seems like the industry is kind of focused on gifts and I've always wondered if that was. You know, an opportunity the industry has is to, you know, find another term, which I don't know what that is. If I did, I'd share. So is there a way people can test that? I guess that was my question is is that aware, you know, when people run into that issue, how do they find the right words?

Philipga Gamse: 17:14

Well, actually we I said describe it, tell me what this actually is and when he did that. We came up easily. I mean, tell me, if you tell me in lay terms I can understand. We easily came up with how we can do that differently. Plus, on the homepage. See, he also didn't really have it explained on the homepage.

Gary Pageau: 17:32

Right.

Philipga Gamse: 17:33

And right now it's the one thing that he wants to sell, right? So on the homepage there should be a thing that says hey, if this is happening to you, you need this boom click here. So, and that's something just to really, you know, stress that point, because I see it again and again If you're in a business where you're using a lot of terminology, it's really important to think about do the people that you want to interact with you understand those words? And if not, you need to talk to them in words that they understand, because otherwise and you know, know, this is why analytics is so helpful, right?

Gary Pageau: 18:05

because without those analytics, I wouldn't have been able to say to him you have had zero people, even seeing the page that describes he was probably shocked by that right he was absolutely yes, yeah because you know, I mean you've raised an interesting point, especially for the photography industry, because, especially in the in the in the hardware side of the business, there's a lot of jargon right for different types of cameras and technical specifications on lenses and all these things. And you know, I've been in the industry a long time and I don't know what some of these things are or why they're important right. So I think you've raised a really good point that you know, for the benefit not just for your customers but of your business, you should look at starting to use more language that is more customer friendly, right.

Philipga Gamse: 18:49

Now, if your customers I don't know say you're selling very high spec equipment to professional photographers, maybe you can do that right, Because maybe they'll be looking for those professional terms.

Philipga Gamse: 19:02

But that's the real issue is how do your visitors describe what they think you have? Now, if you have an internal search engine on your website, that can be a goldmine, Right, Because when people because another thing that analytics can tell you is what do people type into that search engine that's on your site, so we're not talking about Google now, we're talking about your site, the search engine that's on your site, so we're not talking about Google now, we're talking about your site, the search engine, and what people type in there obviously is what they think you have in their terms, and that can be really really helpful in understanding how they think about what you do. Another thing it's really helpful for is that I've used with several clients is if they're looking for things that you don't currently provide but are within your area of expertise, then there's market research about what else you could develop, right, and we've actually with several clients I mean we've actually done that gone ahead and developed new products or services that have been very successful based on what comes out of that search engine.

Gary Pageau: 20:05

You know that's an interesting point because you know, back in the day, when people mostly shop physically you know brick and mortar, environment people would walk in, they would say, do you have X, y or Z? And the retailers say, well, no, but we've got this thing. That's kind of like that. But that's feedback, they're getting Right. And then when things move down to the internet way to capture that an internal search engine or something like that they have no way of assessing what people might want.

Philipga Gamse: 20:36

I know that. You know one of my the things that I really hate I mean I do obviously part of analytics is also looking at the user experience. You know you talked about things that frustrate people and so on. If you put in a search on somebody's website and it comes back and says sorry, we haven't got that, and it says no results found, somehow, that please try your search again with different keywords or something like that, and you know why is that bad? Because it makes it like it's my fault, right, that I couldn't find it. I mean that salesperson in the physical store wouldn't say you stupid person, why are you asking for that, right?

Gary Pageau: 21:12

could you rephrase that in another way? Do more work for me to find out what it is I want from you. So what would be a way people could respond? Let's say, for example, somebody goes on to a camera website and they put in I want, you know, this lens and you don't have that lens. You, but would would you have? We don't have that, but we have this.

Philipga Gamse: 21:40

I mean you could and or you could literally have a contact form there, you know, send us an idea of what you're looking for, or just fill this in brief form or something. I mean I have had a client that built a sort of synonym table right. This was in the electrical, it was manufacturing parts kinds of things. But one of the things we found from looking at their search engine was that people often misspelled part names. And again, I don't know if this happens in photography, because if you have a lot of complicated canon.

Gary Pageau: 22:05

People put they misspell canon all the time right and they also had.

Philipga Gamse: 22:10

They would. They would you know update parts and sort of rename them or give them a different number or something. And people had the old number and their search engine was saying sorry, that's out of stock or that's obsolete.

Gary Pageau: 22:20

Right.

Philipga Gamse: 22:21

Without saying but the part you need is this, right, so they actually did put, did create a sort of a lookup table. I mean, it's a bit more complicated, but it obviously can be done. Right, that maps what people put in to. This is what you actually need, right, and because people were leaving their site, because they were getting these searches and the search engine was saying sorry, we haven't got it, when that actually wasn't true, right, they had it but.

Philipga Gamse: 22:46

They had it but the person had spelled it wrong or didn't know the right number anymore or that kind of thing, and of course then people were leaving their site and going to the competition and when we made that change then obviously that resolved a lot of those issues.

Gary Pageau: 22:58

What kind of results can people expect? I mean, first of all, this doesn't happen overnight, right? When someone starts looking at this stuff, it takes a while for the data to accrue and for trends to be shown and all this. So you know, is there like a percentage increase that people can say are attributable to paying attention to the analytics? Is there a 10% lift or 15%? Is there an industry number? I guess is the question.

Philipga Gamse: 23:24

I think honestly, I think that's how long is a piece. I think that's so dependent on what it is. I mean, look, if you've got a broken link and you fix the link, that can change things overnight. I mean it can change things immediately, right? If you are asking too many questions and you take out the questions that annoy people, that can make a pretty quick difference. It depends on the nature of the problem and it depends on all sorts of other things like how in demand the problem is.

Philipga Gamse: 23:49

I mean, obviously, if it's a high ticket item anyway, people don't necessarily buy that as an impulse buy. You know there are lots of different factors that go into how things work out and I actually have to say so. Google Analytics, which is the tool I normally use, has actually brought in some industry benchmarking. So if you say what industry you're in, it will give you sort of typical because people love that right. Like how many visitors am I getting? Is that typical for the industry? I push back on that honestly, and I think a lot of people whose expertise I respect do as well, because when you're looking at benchmarking against other companies, you don't always know if you're comparing apples with apples, because you don't know what those other companies are doing in terms of effective marketing. You don't know how effective their websites are?

Erin Manning: 24:39

Yeah, because it's just one piece of it.

Philipga Gamse: 24:41

I mean you could say, right, I'm getting fewer visitors than the industry average, but maybe my website is doing a fantastic job of conversion because I've got great content and I really make my case. So the fact that I'm getting fewer visitors, I'm still getting more business because I've got a higher conversion rate. So I personally much prefer to advise clients to benchmark against themselves. You know, when you start doing serious evaluation of your website performance you know, take some measurements right and then set some goals and in three months time, where are we right?

Gary Pageau: 25:14

So what are some examples of how people can use analytics to make a real life difference? We've talked about forms. We've talked about some things. There's a lot of interest in video. Does video actually help?

Philipga Gamse: 25:27

Yeah, so one of the things you can do with analytics that a lot of people don't realize is that you can see not only how many people started the video, but you can see how many people watched it all the way through.

Philipga Gamse: 25:39

So you can set your analytics to tell you when people have seen half of it. It depends, obviously, how long it is right 75%, et cetera and actually the when you look at those analytics in depth, they can actually be quite frightening some of the time. I mean, I have a client who does. He's prolific, I mean every day. He's got several videos that come out in his area of expertise and we looked at some of the viewing statistics and he was losing and this is not untypical 50% of his visitors or people who started watching the video dropped off in the first 30 seconds wow, it was a waste of time then, for the most part well, before we started recording, you said to me I'm not going to spend a whole lot of time at the beginning of the podcast going blah, blah, blah because people want to get into it.

Philipga Gamse: 26:31

they want to go. Okay, is this going to be fun to listen to? Is it going to be valuable? What am I going to get right? Let they want to go. Okay, is this going to be fun to listen to? Is it going to be valuable? What am I going to get Right? Let's, let's go. They've heard. They've heard you before. They're used to who you are, et cetera. Right, one of the things he did do was he did do a lot of blah, blah, blah at the beginning, and I tried to convince him that he really shouldn't, because look at all these people dropping off and by one minute he'd lost 90. I mean, that's ridiculous, right?

Gary Pageau: 26:54

yeah, and if he's doing multiple a day, he's probably driving people away.

Philipga Gamse: 26:58

But well, no, he's very he's, he is very successful. But you know, but I do see a lot of businesses and especially visitors. I mean, this is this is kind of the video that we're sort of the zoom kind of thing that we're doing now. But you know, there are businesses that do some highly expensive, well highly produced videos to promote the business.

Gary Pageau: 27:16

Right.

Philipga Gamse: 27:17

And then you look at their viewing stats and their rubbish and that's that's a problem. I mean, that's really not good news, right so so you, and the same for podcasts, you can also tell how many people listen to the podcast and how much of the podcast they consume, right? So it's really helpful information.

Gary Pageau: 27:34

Speaking of information, where can people go to get more information on what you do and they can learn more?

Philipga Gamse: 27:42

So my website is called websitesthatwincom and on that website you can find a free ebook which has five stories. I think it's called Five Hidden Gems and it has five stories. I think it's called. It's called five hidden gems and it has five stories from actual my experience of things that different clients, different businesses, have found in their analytics that we absolutely couldn't have otherwise known, and changes that we made to the business or to the website based on what we found that made a big difference. And there's no charts, graphs or techie language in it. So you know, my goal is really to help business owners understand the power of doing this without getting into all the technology, because you can find somebody to do that for you. But the point is, as a business owner, you need to know what's in it for you to do this properly. So that's available at my website. It's hopefully designed to inspire people to say maybe something like that could be happening for me. And the other thing is I'm on linkedin.

Philipga Gamse: 28:36

I think I'm the only person in the entire planet with my name which is kind of helpful so, and I'm very happy to connect with people on linkedin awesome so the website again is websites that wincom backslash ebook.

Gary Pageau: 28:51

Now is there a 15 field form and a picture you have to upload to get that, or how quick is that? Well, I guess people should go there and find out.

Philipga Gamse: 29:00

right, that's what we're right, you do have to put in your name and your email because, uh, you know it's. Yeah, it's free, and of course that means that, um, I do like to to know who you are and try and have a conversation with you afterwards, but if you say go away, I'll go away.

Gary Pageau: 29:14

Set up a profile no no, no, no no so you practice.

Philipga Gamse: 29:19

What you preach is what I'm trying to get right and if people don't want to hear from me ever again, they can say so and I'll go away, yeah awesome.

Gary Pageau: 29:26

Well, it's so nice to meet you. Thank you so much. I think you shared some great information and look forward to seeing more from you in the future.

Erin Manning: 29:31

Thanks, Thank you, Gary. Thank you for listening to the Dead Pixel Society podcast. Read more great stories and sign up for the newsletter at wwwthedeadpixelssocietycom.